Sword Identification

[Welsh Mike]

Hi all,

 

Firstly many thanks to Brian for pointing me in the right direction and giving me some information about the attached pictures.

 

For context i 'inherited' a sword when i started a new job in a school. It had been in a cupboard for 30 years or more.

 

I am not sure what to do with the sword at the minute. it is not my property but it deserves to be somewhere other than the cupboard in my office. so any information on what it is, in particular if anyone knows about when it was presented, would be most appreciated.

 

Kind regards, 

 

Mike

[lonely panet]

the mei reads

seki-ju

oka-da

kane-yoshi

saku

 

the smith made showato by the books,  but theres no stamp

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Mike,

Must be a rough school.

 

Is there a stamp further up the tang above the peg hole on the side with the signature?

[Welsh Mike]

Thanks Both,

 

Shugyosha, its one of the poshest schools in UK 

 

Is the attached a stamp?

 

Mike

Edited April 30, 2024 by Welsh Mike
spulling

[Davis]

I can't read the brass plaque in full,  google the Duchess of Gloucester and find what regiment she was Colonel in Chief to in 1948.  Many schools had military items donated to them in the early fifties.  Pubs, veteran's clubs and other institutions displayed them with pride.  Stowe school had a superb tachi  which as far as I can remember now, came up at Phillips.  I was called to a local school years ago as the headmaster wanted to know what to do with two antique Indian swords that had been donated.. Considering the world we live in now the best thing would be if the school donates the sword to the Regimental  Museum.  it's a part of  history, and should be remembered.

[Brian]

It reads:

 

  Quote

Presented to our Colonel in Chief
Her Royal Highness The Dutchess of Glocester
With their humble duty, by all ranks of the 48th
Who fought in Burma
From 1943 to 1945

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This would be Princess Alice. I am not sure if the 48th refers to the 48 Indian Infantry Brigade.
Being an Indian Brigade, not sure if they would have a presence in the UK now. I think this would be a decent item for a UK auction, or maybe find someone who has history with that brigade. I was correct that it has an arsenal stamp, so a non-fully traditionally made arsenal sword. Probably has value to a militaria collector, but anyone's guess how much. But worth looking after and finding a good home for. Thanks for sharing it.

[Welsh Mike]

  On 4/30/2024 at 10:41 AM, Davis said:

I can't read the brass plaque in full,  google the Duchess of Gloucester and find what regiment she was Colonel in Chief to in 1948.  Many schools had military items donated to them in the early fifties.  Pubs, veteran's clubs and other institutions displayed them with pride.  Stowe school had a superb tachi  which as far as I can remember now, came up at Phillips.  I was called to a local school years ago as the headmaster wanted to know what to do with two antique Indian swords that had been donated.. Considering the world we live in now the best thing would be if the school donates the sword to the Regimental  Museum.  it's a part of  history, and should be remembered.

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Thanks Mick

 

Presented to our Colonel in Chief

HRH the Duchess of Gloucester

With their humble duty, by all Ranks of the 48th

Who fought in Burma

From 1943 to 1945

 

Im pretty sure it was the Northamptonshire Regiment which has obviously become the Royal Anglian Regt.

 

I do have a contact in the Regiment but i am just trying to find out about the actual sword before approaching them.

 

Mike

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Your blade isn't dated, but most blades with the large Seki stamp were made in 1941 - 1943, with most of them made in 1942.  So a little reference on age.

The style is called the Type 98 Japanese officer sword.  You can read about them on this great site: Army commissioned officers Shin-Guntō (Type 98 Guntō) 1938 (ohmura-study.net)  The blue/brown tassel was used by Company grade officers (Lt's and Capt's).

 

The stamp was used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association as an approval stamp.  Blades with this stamp are usually pretty nice quality.

 

If you don't find an appropriate organization to donate to, mount it on the wall, with a framed document laying out it's history.  After all, you are in a school!

[Brian]

  On 4/30/2024 at 12:09 PM, Welsh Mike said:

Im pretty sure it was the Northamptonshire Regiment which has obviously become the Royal Anglian Regt.

I do have a contact in the Regiment but i am just trying to find out about the actual sword before approaching them.

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I don't think they existed past the late 1800's, and certainly weren't in WW2.
I'm pretty sure the only 48th in Burma were the Indian Brigade, who were prolific there and did a huge amount in the Burma Campaign.

[Davis]

Mike,

Apparently she had twelve regiments.  My guess and it is only a guess,  Kings Own Scottish Borderers.  2nd Battalion went to Burma in 1943.  Took part in Imphal and Battle of The Admin Box.  The Royal West Kent Regimental Museum has exhibits from both these battles and from memory has that famous wooden cross with the names of the fallen.  Mike, I can't help thinking that it would be a good project for your students to work on before presenting to a museum etc.,  As Brian said it could be sold at auction.  The Stowe one ( from memory ) was sold at auction and fetched a very good price but it was  hundreds of years older than the one you have. The information about the 2nd Battalion I found online, how accurate it is I don't know.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

Bruce - did you notice the hand painted "kao" on the nakago jiri? Looks like a hand or headdress. 

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 4/30/2024 at 3:33 PM, John C said:

hand painted "kao" on the nakago jiri?

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Dang, just when you think you've seen it all!  Since it's painted in the same paint as the number, my complete guess would be that it's from the fittings shop.  You've been researching painted numbers, ever see anything like it?

[Welsh Mike]

  On 4/30/2024 at 12:19 PM, Brian said:

I don't think they existed past the late 1800's, and certainly weren't in WW2.
I'm pretty sure the only 48th in Burma were the Indian Brigade, who were prolific there and did a huge amount in the Burma Campaign.

Expand  

Thanks Brian,

 

Admittedly this is Wiki

 

The Northamptonshire Regiment was a line infantry regiment of the British Army in existence from 1881 until 1960. In 1960, it was amalgamated with the Royal Lincolnshire Regiment to form the 2nd East Anglian Regiment (Duchess of Gloucester's Own Royal Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire), which was amalgamated with the 1st East Anglian Regiment (Royal Norfolk and Suffolk)

 

The 1st Battalion was a Regular Army unit that served in the Burma campaign and India throughout the war with the 32nd Indian Infantry Brigade, 20th Indian Infantry Division.^[12]

 

Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (born Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott; 25 December 1901 – 29 October 2004) 

Military appointments[

• Colonel-in-Chief, the King's Own Scottish Borderers^[20][42]
• Colonel-in-Chief, the Northamptonshire Regiment^[20][42]

[Welsh Mike]

  On 4/30/2024 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Your blade isn't dated, but most blades with the large Seki stamp were made in 1941 - 1943, with most of them made in 1942.  So a little reference on age.

The style is called the Type 98 Japanese officer sword.  You can read about them on this great site: Army commissioned officers Shin-Guntō (Type 98 Guntō) 1938 (ohmura-study.net)  The blue/brown tassel was used by Company grade officers (Lt's and Capt's).

 

The stamp was used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association as an approval stamp.  Blades with this stamp are usually pretty nice quality.

 

If you don't find an appropriate organization to donate to, mount it on the wall, with a framed document laying out it's history.  After all, you are in a school!

Expand  

Thats great Bruce, Thankyou.

[Welsh Mike]

  On 4/30/2024 at 2:47 PM, Davis said:

Mike,

Apparently she had twelve regiments.  My guess and it is only a guess,  Kings Own Scottish Borderers.  2nd Battalion went to Burma in 1943.  Took part in Imphal and Battle of The Admin Box.  The Royal West Kent Regimental Museum has exhibits from both these battles and from memory has that famous wooden cross with the names of the fallen.  Mike, I can't help thinking that it would be a good project for your students to work on before presenting to a museum etc.,  As Brian said it could be sold at auction.  The Stowe one ( from memory ) was sold at auction and fetched a very good price but it was  hundreds of years older than the one you have. The information about the 2nd Battalion I found online, how accurate it is I don't know.

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Mick,

 

I dont have the authorisation to donate to anyone yet but i have found a possible link. Out local Regiment is the 1st Battallion Royal Anglian. Their Officers Mess has records of everything they donated from around 1910! so i will go and have a look if they have records of the sword and how it ended up in my cupboard.

 

Lots of people i have spoken to, including Brian, have told me there are better places to place the sword. one option is sending it back to the Officers mass at 1 RAng.

 

We shall see.

 

Anyway thanks for your help everyone.

[Brian]

Mike,
Yes, they existed until the 1960's. But my point is that they merged and became the Northamptonshire regt in the late 1800's. They were not called the 48th after that time as far as I can tell.
So for a regiment to call themselves the 48th, as per your sword...is a bit odd. Otherwise the inscription would have been "Northamptonshire" and not 48th.
But I guess they may have still called themselves the 48th 1st Battalion. Shouldn't be too difficult to make inquiries into that.
Sword and inscription are undoubtedly genuine, so it's just a case of working out the logistics.
Perhaps a call to the Imperial War Museum will shed some light.

[Welsh Mike]

  On 5/1/2024 at 7:51 AM, Brian said:

Mike,
Yes, they existed until the 1960's. But my point is that they merged and became the Northamptonshire regt in the late 1800's. They were not called the 48th after that time as far as I can tell.
So for a regiment to call themselves the 48th, as per your sword...is a bit odd. Otherwise the inscription would have been "Northamptonshire" and not 48th.
But I guess they may have still called themselves the 48th 1st Battalion. Shouldn't be too difficult to make inquiries into that.
Sword and inscription are undoubtedly genuine, so it's just a case of working out the logistics.
Perhaps a call to the Imperial War Museum will shed some light.

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Ah i see, that makes sense.

 

The Imperial War Museum were totally not interested in engaging. but i will keep trying.

[Conway S]

  On 5/1/2024 at 7:51 AM, Brian said:

But I guess they may have still called themselves the 48th 1st Battalion. Shouldn't be too difficult to make inquiries into that.

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I think Brian is correct. As a collector of British swords, I have been confused to find references to old unit names after the unit amalgamated with another. As a matter of heraldry, I think battalions wanted to maintain ties to their original regiments. I think @Dave R also collects British swords and may have some additional insight. 

 

Conway

[Welsh Mike]

  On 5/2/2024 at 12:21 PM, Conway S said:

 

I think Brian is correct. As a collector of British swords, I have been confused to find references to old unit names after the unit amalgamated with another. As a matter of heraldry, I think battalions wanted to maintain ties to their original regiments. I think @Dave R also collects British swords and may have some additional insight. 

 

Conway

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Thanks Conway, i have some nice British swords here also

 

Mike