Tsuba age

[katonk66]

Hello everyone. This is from a nihontou I received from Japan. That being said, is there a..."way" of guesstimating how old a tsuba maybe (other than a mei). As in a rough date range, or at least an era? 

Thanks.

Henry

[vajo]

If you have no other proof i would go with mid Edo. 

 

[katonk66]

8 hours ago, vajo said:

If you have no other proof i would go with mid Edo. 

 

Thank you. Is there a way of guesstimating and age or era range? I assume pre-Edo function over form with simpler and sturdier material? Edo and after form over function with the elaborate designs and inlays?

[rematron]

Hi Henry,

 

I'm a novice so keep that in mind.  From my understanding, when it comes to TSUBA, function is always over form.  The material used for traditional TSUBA is always sturdy be it iron based or soft metal and both of these materials were used pre-Edo and throughout Edo.  Ko (pre-Edo) TSUBA do tend to be simpler in design but that's not always the case and only one factor in guessing at the age.  Many many TSUBA produced in the Edo era were inspired by TSUBA of older eras so the simplicity factor in itself is not a good tell to rely on for dating.  The actual design carved (SUKASHI) into your TSUBA can be used to date it as well.  Even the thickness of the plate is a tell.  A person more knowledgeable than me or an expert would take all factors into account to determine/guess its age.

 

My own observation is that the plate is flat and thick which gives me an Edo vibe.

 

[Winchester]

Congrats on your purchase!  In reviewing tsuba in person, books, online, et cetera, you will gain a sense as you learn more to provide an approximate range.

 

Keep asking questions and enjoy the journey!

 

I am a newer collector as well; and for the past few years have studied tosogu daily, but I am not an expert.

 

My opinion based on what little information I can see in your post is that it is a revivalist piece likely mid-1800's. (re; kozukahitsuana, sukashi, and thickness) Texture seems overdone or exaggerated too which may be on subtlety pointing to this as well. Again, my opinion only and there are experts amongst us who can further provide commentary. Hope this is of interest and may help.

[FlorianB]

Hello Henry,

 

it would be helpful giving the dimensions of the Tsuba - height, width and thickness both at the rim and the seppa-dai.
Some more pictures in different angles would be useful, too.

 

My first impression was Edo-period (Genroku or later) and I agree with Jeremys and Brians explanations.

The design with its clever combination of blossom and fan-shape (?) hints to a later interpretation of the Tosho-style.

If it looks older in Your eyes it’s just because of a corroded surface resulting of careless treatment in the past. Nevertheless it would be worth recovering the patination.

 

Best,
Florian

[katonk66]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:20 AM, FlorianB said:

Hello Henry,

 

it would be helpful giving the dimensions of the Tsuba - height, width and thickness both at the rim and the seppa-dai.
Some more pictures in different angles would be useful, too.

 

My first impression was Edo-period (Genroku or later) and I agree with Jeremys and Brians explanations.

The design with its clever combination of blossom and fan-shape (?) hints to a later interpretation of the Tosho-style.

If it looks older in Your eyes it’s just because of a corroded surface resulting of careless treatment in the past. Nevertheless it would be worth recovering the patination.

 

Best,
Florian

Thank you. I work in the EMS field, so when i'm off duty in a few days, i'll post a few pictures with further dimensions.

[Higo-san]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:11 PM, rematron said:

Hi Henry,

 

I'm a novice so keep that in mind.  From my understanding, when it comes to TSUBA, function is always over form.  The material used for traditional TSUBA is always sturdy be it iron based or soft metal and both of these materials were used pre-Edo and throughout Edo.  Ko (pre-Edo) TSUBA do tend to be simpler in design but that's not always the case and only one factor in guessing at the age.  Many many TSUBA produced in the Edo era were inspired by TSUBA of older eras so the simplicity factor in itself is not a good tell to rely on for dating.  The actual design carved (SUKASHI) into your TSUBA can be used to date it as well.  Even the thickness of the plate is a tell.  A person more knowledgeable than me or an expert would take all factors into account to determine/guess its age.

 

My own observation is that the plate is flat and thick which gives me an Edo vibe.

 

I quite much like your approach. Determining the age of a tsuba is not just guessing or judging by experience. There are some criteria. Let us start with the design. When it comes to sukashi tsuba, there are ko and ji sukashi designs. Ko sukashi designs can be found on tsuba dating back to earliest times. Ji sukashi tsuba became more popular later on and became the predominant design in the Momoyama (maybe even mid-Muromachi) period. The tsuba in question shows elements combining both the ko and ji sukashi style. This can be well seen on the upper half of your ume blossom where the negative image turns into a positive one. That being said (and not taking into account the possibility of a later modification of the design which was also quite common) we can rule out a very early piece. We do either have a transition piece or a later combination of the two styles (which is therefore not a revival in a strict sense). Looking at the somewhat fan(cy) design of the hitsu, I would rule out a transition piece. That means that the tsuba was made in a time when both the ko and ji sukashi style had been fully evolved (Momoyama or maybe a bit earlier). And now we have to decide when it became popular to combine ko and ji sukashi designs and create somewhat fan(cy) hitsu. That finally brings us to the Edo period.

 

Best

 

Chris

[katonk66]

Update-Rim: 3mm

              Seppa dai: 4mm

 

Pictures photographed as best as possible. 

[Abaris]

It's beautiful. It fits my wakizashi so well I muat ask, is there a standard measure within the nihontō? I mean, look at the measures from both items, looks like made to measure to mine.

[Avidmark]

On 4/30/2024 at 2:18 AM, Higo-san said:

I quite much like your approach. Determining the age of a tsuba is not just guessing or judging by experience. There are some criteria. Let us start with the design. When it comes to sukashi tsuba, there are ko and ji sukashi designs. Ko sukashi designs can be found on tsuba dating back to earliest times. Ji sukashi tsuba became more popular later on and became the predominant design in the Momoyama (maybe even mid-Muromachi) period. The tsuba in question shows elements combining both the ko and ji sukashi style. This can be well seen on the upper half of your ume blossom where the negative image turns into a positive one. That being said (and not taking into account the possibility of a later modification of the design which was also quite common) we can rule out a very early piece. We do either have a transition piece or a later combination of the two styles (which is therefore not a revival in a strict sense). Looking at the somewhat fan(cy) design of the hitsu, I would rule out a transition piece. That means that the tsuba was made in a time when both the ko and ji sukashi style had been fully evolved (Momoyama or maybe a bit earlier). And now we have to decide when it became popular to combine ko and ji sukashi designs and create somewhat fan(cy) hitsu. That finally brings us to the Edo period.

 

Best

 

Chris

Excellent explanation!

[Bugyotsuji]

Chris, do you know the kanji for 'ko' sukashi? Is it 古? I am guessing ji sukashi must be 地透かし?

[FlorianB]

11 hours ago, katonk66 said:

Rim: 3mm

              Seppa dai: 4mm

The discus shape (naka-daka) is typical for Edo Tsuba. On pre-Edo Tsuba frequently naka-kubo (rim thicker than seppa-dai) is to be seen.

Tsuba with uniform thickness have been made through all ages and thus difficult to determine by shape alone.

 

BTW: The fan shape (as I called it) is also described as inome (boars eye) or suhama (beach) by others. Don't know what's right.

 

Best,

Florian

[Higo-san]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Chris, do you know the kanji for 'ko' sukashi? Is it 古? I am guessing ji sukashi must be 地透かし?

Hi Piers, the NBTHK uses the 小 Kanji which makes sense as it is meant to be translated as small (rather than old). You are correct regarding the Ji-Kanji. But you do not have to add the hiragana for ka and shi after 透. Best, Chris

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for that, Chris.

 

Here’s one with some similarities, but I actually prefer Henry’s one above with the large uchiwa-shaped Hitsu-ana.

 

Iron, go-ishi-gata with Kikkyo bellflower sukashi. 7.8 x 7.8 cm. It has a fine rim at the mimi on which you can just catch your fingernail.

 

 

 

 

[katonk66]

4 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Thanks for that, Chris.

 

Here’s one with some similarities, but I actually prefer Henry’s one above with the large uchiwa-shaped Hitsu-ana.

 

Iron, go-ishi-gata with Kikkyo bellflower sukashi. 7.8 x 7.8 cm. It has a fine rim at the mimi on which you can just catch your fingernail.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. And you have a lovely piece there! In retrospect, are these flowers indicative of family kamon, or just decorative in nature?

[Bugyotsuji]

This is a good question which will surely never be answered fully. I think the tsuba-ko artisan generally created several pieces, showing what kind of work he could do. A special order from a certain bushi customer though, might have expressed a desire to show (even distant) affiliation with a specific clan.

 

Remember that tsuba were interchangeable, and seasonal poetic references were important too. Ume were generally the first blossom to flower, so they represented the New Year. 

 

I have another similar tuba with a series of different sukashi flowers (and a shell) on it. Now I am just beginning to wonder if it could have been a shop piece, illustrating what the artisan could offer... (?)

 

 

 

[Higo-san]

Agree with Piers - certainly, there is no wrong or right to this question.

 

First of all, symbols were chosen as a kamon because they had a specific meaning (long before they were turned into kamon). For example, the ume (plum) is one of the Three Friends of Winter. It symbolizes i.a. steadfastness, perseverance and resilience. Therefore, it is a natural choice as a symbol for a warrior. As a symbol, it is also highly regarded in Confucianism. That being said, an ume mon can always have at least two meanings: a heraldic meaning as a kamon and a symbolic meaning as a reference to the Three Friends of Winter. How can we decide which meaning is the right one in a specific case?

 

That brings me to my second point: the (mis)use of only very few kamon was sanctioned by law during the Edo period. That is true e.g. for the aoi kamon used by the Tokugawa (main) family. That means that basically everyone was allowed to use whichever symbol he/she likes (as long as it was not the Tokugawa or an imperial symbol).

 

However, some kamon are seldomly found on sword mountings. In many cases, these are modifications of very basic kamon and therefore likely have a heraldic meaning.

 

Last but not least, we find pieces which show a whole range of different mon. Hayashi Shigemitsu and Tohachi were famous for such tsuba. I have once owned such a piece which came from the collection of Sasano Masayuki and is depicted in two of his publications. The design compromises different mon which could either be kamon or symbolize different aspects of the Japanese culture. I finally came to the conclusion that designs which combine various mon do neither have a heraldic (like a wedding between members of two important families) nor a symbol meaning. In order to understand my way of thinking, we have to understand the Edo period culture. We have to understand the importance of ceremonies and philosophy. The sword itself becomes a symbol of power. The importance of a sword as a weapon is declining in the Edo period. In other words: a sword had to look good when strolling through the streets of Kyoto. And as we can see products made from silk or lacquer which show all kind of mon and which are meant for decoration only, I believe that the same thing is true for tsuba. The Hayashi family and other tsuba artists created designs which looked powerful on the one hand but on the other hand could be worn on an elegant occasion. 
 

Hopyfully, this adds to the discussion.

 

Chris