Rust (corrosion) on tsuba.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all my friends!

 

You all know I appreciate a “little controversy”; it is a great leaning experience!

 

Actually, I have been thinking about this particular “rust” subject for a couple of years, but a post from another member on a current thread led me to this.

 

It is about rust (corrosion) on iron (hand forged) tsuba.  As I am only a “low end” collector of tsuba, I have purchased (over the years) several rusted tsuba.  They are still much appreciated, have a good home, and I learn from them!

 

I have attached several pictures of a few of my rusted tsuba.

 

What has always interested me is that the rust seems to have attacked a large part of the surface of all the tsuba shown.  Yes, sometimes the rust has “eaten” away at a particular area, but the rust (as I stated) seems to cover a large area (on both sides) of the tsuba.

 

Does anyone have any pictures of were the rust on their tsuba has only “attacked” a very small area of the piece?  I don’t have any tsuba that show that pattern of rust (corrosion).

 

Thanks!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Steves87]

I'm not sure I understand the extent of small rust spotting you are trying to see, but I have quite a few that once had localised rust areas. This is one of these examples.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

@Spartancrest would call those "New"

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Stephen!

 

What a great job you have done on cleaning that tsuba! 

 

I have included your pictures with a small area of concentrated rust circled on the tsuba shown on the left hand side (since it seems to me that-as in my pictures-the rust has “attacked” a large surface area of the tsuba).  Bottom picture is the tsuba rusted, top picture is the tsuba after your great cleaning job (that must have taken some time and patience!).

 

What I am trying to ascertain is how an area of rust (corrosion) looks after the tsuba is cleaned.  I have read posts on this forum where I think a member may mistake what I deem as a “casting flaw” for what they think was an area of rust that was cleaned.  Yes, it all comes back to cast iron tsuba and yes, I could be totally wrong about if it is a flaw or cleaned rust (that is what I am trying to figure out!).

 

Anyway, I think this is an interesting endeavor and may give some insight into identifying hand forged or cast iron tsuba.

 

It gives this retired old guy something to do!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[rematron]

15 hours ago, Steves87 said:

I'm not sure I understand the extent of small rust spotting you are trying to see, but I have quite a few that once had localised rust areas. This is one of these examples.

Beautiful stabilization/restoration work!

[Steves87]

I see what you are getting at, Dan. Not a bad idea, I think the main issue you will have, is the infinite different results that are possible... I have a ton of photos just like the one above and every one is different. I am almost 100% sure some of them are rust over previous unwanted/fixed rust... and getting a bit literal, iron patina is a controlled rust anyway, isn't it? Who says that between intentional hammer blows/chisel marks and various levels of intentional patina rust, a created finish cant just happen to look like a cast finish?

[Soshin]

I remember years ago being told and reading not to clean the inside surfaces of the sukashi of tsuba. It would be messing with age determination of tsuba much like cleaning the nakago of a Japanese sword.      

[Spartancrest]

26 minutes ago, Soshin said:

I remember years ago being told and reading not to clean the inside surfaces of the sukashi of tsuba.

Yes I have read that too. It always seemed to me it was like keeping a cavity in a tooth without putting a filling in - bound to get worse from the inside out.

There must be a better way of determining age without digging through years [centuries?] of dirt, rust and detritus. Reminds me of a really 'gungy' namban I have. It had gooey gunk mixed in with red rust. How can you clean a guard like this that has undercutting without cleaning the sukashi? Should I have just let it go to show it's age? A pile of rust only tells us it is neglected in my opinion. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!  Oh no!  Not me again!!

 

Thanks, Spartancrest for your picture of the “before and after” of your namban tsuba.

 

(And I agree with you, how can you clean a sukashi tsuba like that and leave the area on the inside of the sukashi carving alone.  All you would have is a tsuba with some of the rust removed, and some of the rust not removed!)

 

I think (don’t know for sure!) that an iron tsuba is totally different in its rust formation than a steel sword.  I have both antique rusted iron tsuba and antique rusted Japanese steel swords.  My antique Japenese steel swords (and other antique edged weapons made from steel I collect) may have some “rust spots” on them, but the rust does not cover a large area of the blade.  On my antique iron tsuba, the rust has “attacked” a good-sized portion of the iron tsuba. Whether that is because, over the years, the steel swords have been taken better care of then the iron tsuba, or whether there is a difference in the rust (corrosion) of steel compared to iron (which I personally believe is the case) is something I do not have the expertise to establish.

 

Spartancrest, I have included your pictures below. Once again, I see that the rust (corrosion) has “attacked” a large area of the tsuba (not concentrated in a single area), although some areas appear to be more slightly "eaten away” than other areas.

 

Anyway, I have attached pictures of two more of my rusted (corroded) tsuba (yes, and I have more of them!).  One has been cleaned (not by me!) and the other has not been cleaned.  The first two pictures of my tsuba shows a “sea cucumber” motif type tsuba that I think is cast iron (but where is a cheap non-invasive “cast iron only” metal detector when you need one-ha, ha, ha, etc!!).

 

I think I am starting to see a “trend” here.  If a tsuba has been rusted, there will be several areas of “pitting” of the metal.  Some “pitting” areas may be larger than others, but the “pitting” and rust “depressions” appear over a large part of the tsuba.  Not just in one tiny specific area.

 

Anyway, just some interesting stuff to keep this old man busy! 

 

All pictures of rusted, or rusted and cleaned tsuba, would be appreciated.  As well as members thoughts and comments and what they think about this subject area that is being presented.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

(I know that many of you must be saying “Can’t this retired old guy find anything better to do”!  But right now, for me, this area of research is fun and exciting -at least for me!)

 

Well, I have included more pictures of some of my rusted tsuba (a few have been cleaned-but not by me!).

 

Once again, you can see that the rust has “attacked” a large area of the tsuba and has left pitting and depressions on the surface.  The rust has not confined itself to one small, tiny area of the tsuba.  What I am trying to show on this thread is that rust “attacks” a large area of the tsuba (at least on my tsuba!).

 

Now what is of interest (for me!) is the tsuba shown in my last 2 pictures.  I am fairly certain (personal opinion!) that it is a cast iron tsuba.  For those that are interested (and it probably won’t be a lot of you!) I base that opinion from the information on page 13 (from my post of January 8^th ) of my “Tsuba casting molds?”  thread -which can be found here-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38416-tsuba-casting-molds/page/13/

 

I know my pictures here are not the best, but that is as good as I can get them!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[goo]

All ferrous metals oxidize (rust). The ferrous metal workers challenge is to come up with a comprise with entropy.   In other words patina the surface of the thing so that the process of entropy (rust) can be managed slowed down. 

All Patinas on an Iron objects surface are rust based.    In the past you could create a controlled rust/patinaed surface on an object with an acidic chemical (vinegar) then neutralize the oxidation by means of a base chemical (ammonia/urine) modern term would be called browning.   A second choice would be to place the object in a moist environment allow it to rust evenly then if possible convert/stabilize/neutralize these natural process in boiling water called rust bluing.  Thirdly you could allow the object to form oxides naturally until an even layer/color appears then apply a barrier wax or oil to minimize/mitigate the process of entropy. 

 

I agree with Spartancrest in that you can interfere and clean the object so you don`t end up with a pile of rust or a severely damaged work of someone`s hands.  

[Spartancrest]

50 minutes ago, goo said:

In the past you could create a controlled rust/patinaed surface on an object with an acidic chemical (vinegar) then neutralize the oxidation by means of a base chemical (ammonia/urine) modern term would be called browning.

I have had some good success with a vinegar treatment [not used on inlay work just plain Iron] but rather than urine [yuck] or ammonia, I have used another "bodily fluid" saliva. I came across an article:  in a medical journal:.

 

"Lactoferrin is an iron-binding protein found in human saliva and breastmilk, likewise Ptyalin (also found in saliva) also reacts with iron. By exposure to the air for 24 hours the ptyalin becomes alkaline."

 

(London Medical Gazette: Or, Journal of Practical Medicine)

 

The saliva neutralises the acid of the vinegar bringing the metal surface back to 'normal' it also seems to accelerate 'black rust' to form. Especially if subjected to some moderate heat for a short time.  I have had lots of practice on damaged pieces and I would suggest don't try this at home on any valuable pieces as you may [will] lose patina if your item has any. [mine were rust on rust on rust as you can see from the images posted April 26 above!]

 

Is it just a coincidence that one of the translations for the word "tsuba" in Japanese - means "spit" ? 

[goo]

22 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

I have had some good success with a vinegar treatment [not used on inlay work just plain Iron] but rather than urine [yuck] or ammonia, I have used another "bodily fluid" saliva. I came across an article:  in a medical journal:.

 

"Lactoferrin is an iron-binding protein found in human saliva and breastmilk, likewise Ptyalin (also found in saliva) also reacts with iron. By exposure to the air for 24 hours the ptyalin becomes alkaline."

 

(London Medical Gazette: Or, Journal of Practical Medicine)

 

The saliva neutralises the acid of the vinegar bringing the metal surface back to 'normal' it also seems to accelerate 'black rust' to form. Especially if subjected to some moderate heat for a short time.  I have had lots of practice on damaged pieces and I would suggest don't try this at home on any valuable pieces as you may [will] lose patina if your item has any. [mine were rust on rust on rust as you can see from the images posted April 26 above!]

 

Is it just a coincidence that one of the translations for the word "tsuba" in Japanese - means "spit" ? 

That`s funny  like mimi means ears and also the rim around the perimeter.   Getting off topic a bit here fun facts about vinegar.   It will dissolve iron and steel so you can add filings to vinegar. After they are dissolved apply it to wood when it dries apply heat and it will oxidize the surface and produce color or bring out figure if any exists.  Maple can turn different shades from light brown to red, mahogani will turn black, etc. and so forth.   some people soak files and or cutting burrs in vinegar for a short time and it will sharpen the edges on the file teeth  by dissolving off a layer of steel but you can only do this once maybe twice.