Owari tsuba, maple leaf? Cast?

[Soshin]

A downvote on the message board is just a mark of disagreement based upon the conclusions stated in that specific post. It should not be viewed as any type of personal attack period. All personal attacks are not permitted here. Here is an article I have read years ago about cast-iron reproductions of tsuba made in Japan (cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)). Cast-iron reproduction tsuba with exceptionally large open work designs are weak and nonfunctional as indicated in the linked article. I really cannot be sure 100% @GeorgeLuucas until I examine your tsuba in hand to confirm, but based upon the photos provide it looks to be forged iron tsuba that does show some age-appropriate (for an antique from the Edo Period) surface damage caused by rust that has since been removed and the surface patina stabilized.

 

I once had a cast-iron reproduction of a tsuba that was a convincing fake (it fooled me, the original owner, and the dealer who sold it to me) until you examined it very closely in hand and noticed the weight of (lack of weight) the tsuba you cannot be 100% sure of anything.          

[Scogg]

Thank you @Soshin,

I am less concerned with the downvote itself, and more concerned that I was misunderstood by someone I respect (you). Admittedly, I was taken-aback by a downvote from a moderator, but i'll get over it    

I never meant to conclude anything in my original post, and your previous comment implied that I was agreeing that this tsuba is cast along with Dan - but I didn't say, or conclude that. At least I didn't intend to. I'm simply too green with fittings to conclude anything here. 

If I failed to make that clear, that's on me.

Again, thank you for the info and especially that link!
I always appreciate the help and information, 
Sincerely,
-Sam

 

 

[Scogg]

And I thought studying blades was complicated and full of nuance 

Jokes aside - I appreciate everyones input a lot. I am looking forward to getting my Tsuba into the hands of someone more knowledgeable (than me), for an in-person assessment. I wish I could sit down and discuss it with you David, or Jean. If nothing else, I've learned how little I truly know - which is always humbling. 

@Spartancrest the image in your previous comment does not seem to be working - but I think I know the area you are referring to, upon looking at my original images.

 

I took my Tsuba to my LED light this morning and tried to capture that area. It appears to be indented into the metal, roughly a long triangular shape, and is the only blemish like it on the whole tsuba. It was filled with dust or rust, that darkened when I rubbed it with my pinky finger.

+ Added some more photos under the LED,
Thank you everyone,
-Sam 

 

[Brian]

  On 4/25/2024 at 1:48 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

Admittedly, I was taken-aback by a downvote from a moderator, but i'll get over it....

 

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We have moderators that I don't know about??

[Scogg]

  On 4/25/2024 at 2:31 PM, Brian said:

We have moderators that I don't know about??

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Oh no! Looks like I'm misunderstanding again.. But this one does confuse me 

 

when you click on his page profile it says grandmaster, but on my browser it says moderator 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by GeorgeLuucas

[rematron]

Admittedly, I am very new to collecting TOSOGU but I am firmly in the forged camp of this OP TSUBA. 

 

What stands out to me is the inside surfaces.  They appear to be very smooth and lack the pitting/texture, which I also feel could be purposeful texture if not produced by corrosion and subsequent stabilization and re-patination.  I'm remembering another thread from around a year ago where @Ford Hallam had chimed in after I myself had thought a TSUBA was cast because of lack of detail and an overall pitted appearance.  He stated that many surface textures were purposeful and pointed out other reasons for believing that particular TSUBA was forged in his opinion.  It was a forum lesson I will not soon forget!  Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is: wouldn't casting texture/pitting be uniform on all surfaces? 

 

The other thing that stands out to me are the crisp 90% angles of the edges.  Most examples of cast TSUBA (of the iron-based variety) I have seen on the forum don't have these uniform and predominant sharp edges.

 

What I get from the combination of these two things is that it was forged and chased/carved.

 

Obviously, I could be wrong about these observations and I'm open to learn like most people on this great forum.  

[rematron]

  On 4/25/2024 at 2:45 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

Oh no! Looks like I'm misunderstanding again.. But this one does confuse me 

 

when you click on his page profile it says grandmaster, but on my browser it says moderator 

 

 

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I have noticed this same thing and also thought there were other moderators albeit not as involved as @Brian.

[Brian]

Dealers who have their own section are moderators over their own dealer area. David is moderator of Rain Dragon Antiques, even if the store is now not active, it still exists.

[Matsunoki]

  On 4/25/2024 at 4:09 PM, rematron said:

I'm remembering another thread from around a year ago where @Ford Hallam had chimed in after I myself had thought a TSUBA was cast because of lack of detail and an overall pitted appearance.  He stated that many surface textures were purposeful and pointed out other reasons for believing that particular TSUBA was forged in his opinion. 

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For those of you who have the fortitude to read it, this I think is the thread Jeremy refers to. 

 

[Scogg]

Thanks for clearing that up Brian, that makes sense. And apologies to David for the misunderstanding 

Thank you for that link Colin! And for the info and input Jeremy! I'll be reading over that thread while I procrastinate my work today 

Thanks again everyone, and sorry I let this thread jump all over the place.
Cheers,
-Sam

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Sam!

 

Thanks for adding those pictures to the thread of your tsuba taken under the LED!

 

I don’t know (and other opinions would be appreciated), but I think I see signs of casting.

 

There appears to be a “casting seam” down the middle of one of the leaves (it was not fully filed down).

 

There is also what appears to be a flaw on the bottom of one of the “swirls” attached to the hitsu-ana.

 

Also, a “flaw” on the side of the seppa-dai that was probably something stuck somewhere in the mold?

 

Anyway, I have included your picture with my interpretations of what I see circled.

 

What are your thoughts about it?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Scogg]

Thank you @Dan tsuba, that's very helpful. 

I see what you see - but the "seam" on the leaf is very hard to see in person. After work I'll have to investigate that area more carefully, and I'll try to get a better clear photo of it.

My thoughts about it? Mostly confused! haha.

I see everything the CAST party says, but I also see everything the NOT-CAST party says.

I simply don't know what to think... 

If it's cast - I will keep it as an example of a sneaky cast.
If it's hand forged - even better! I'll also keep it .

Ultimately, I have no plans to part with it, so I just want to know the truth.
And hopefully learn something in the process,
Cheers,
-Sam
 

[Scogg]

I tried to focus on the leaf in question.
 

It was very challenging to get good photos because it’s such a small area, but please let me know what ya think!

 

Thanks again,

-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Sam,

 

You stated, “so I just want to know the truth.”

 

Well, my friend, like was stated on that old T.V. series “The X files” – The Truth is out There!!

 

However, finding the truth can be difficult!

 

I don't know, maybe cast or maybe not!  I give up!  Other much more knowlegable members than I am will probably "chime in"!

 

Just having some fun here!  It has been my experience on this forum that some members take themselves much to seriously!

 

The adventure continues (we will see what other members think of your very nice tsuba), and Onward my friend!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Scogg]

Thank you @Dan tsuba, I appreciate the feedback, and I owe you an apology for being testy earlier. For that I’m sorry
 

Edit:* Ultimately, I plan to get it into the hands of someone more experienced and knowledgable than I. Until then
 

All the best my friend,

Cheers,

-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Sam,

 

You are a gentleman.  Apology accepted, no worries!!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

Hi Sam, the image I posted was a much blurrier version - your new images are great. Taking a decent image of the inside edges is pretty difficult [I have less success!] 

The deep  V mark looks all the world like it was cut by a chisel to me, but how did they get at it from that angle? - the more you look at this tsuba the more interesting it becomes, fascinating little object! 

It has sparked more interest than I imagine you were expecting.