Owari tsuba, maple leaf? Cast?

[Scogg]

I’ve got this tsuba that I’m pretty sure is Owari. I had thought the motif was maple leaf, but I saw some similar listed as paulownia leaf. 
 

Maple or paulownia? Something else?

 

Cheers,

-Sam 

Edited April 24, 2024 by GeorgeLuucas
Change title. Added “Cast?”

[Dan tsuba]

Whatever leaf!

 

My opinion is that the tsuba is cast!  It looks to have several casting flaws.

 

Take a hammer to it and see if it breaks!

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Scogg]

  On 4/23/2024 at 11:15 PM, Dan tsuba said:

Whatever leaf!

 

My opinion is that the tsuba is cast!  It looks to have several casting flaws.

 

Take a hammer to it and see if it breaks!

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

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Bummer!
 

Not doubting you, but would

you mind pointing out where you see casting flaws so that I can see them? Admittedly, I’m not well versed in fittings 

 

Cheers, 

-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Sam!

 

I am probably totally wrong and don't want to "rain on your parade" (I am certain other members will let me know!!).  But this is what I see!

 

Pictures attached.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Scogg]

There’s no raining on this parade . It’s no problem at all - I’m here to learn. Hopefully I’ll get some more opinions that help confirm or deny that if it’s cast.

 

Here’s some more photos where I focused on some of the areas you circled. I appreciate the help! It’s always a learning experience

(last photo of one of the more smooth sides)

 

All the best,

-Sam
 

 

[Spartancrest]

I think the plant design is a little ambiguous. I can see the resemblance to a Maple leaf plant motif but it also has characteristics of Kiri?  The example below from the Varshavsky collection is not a million miles away from your tsuba design, the Kiri motif is just "pulled" further out of the rim and has the usual central top of the leaf which is missing on the one you have. [I have no idea why]

 

" The Kiri (桐) pattern is generally composed of three standing straight inflorescences and three leaves."  https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/episode-5-design-plant②/

 

       https://varshavskyco...collection/tsu-0259/

 “Gosan no Kiri” once was used by royal families or leaders for their emblems, and it’s being used even ordinary people today as their family crests. Arabesque designs are put between “Gosan no Kiri” patterns and engraved by openwork. Arabesque pattern represents prosperity and longevity.

 

  Maples would tend to have more tips to the leaves  [depends on each species] 

[ROKUJURO]

Sam,

I would love to hold your TSUBA in hand, but just looking at the photos, I think it is a legit OWARI TSUBA. The "irregularities" on the MIMI are either TEKKOTSU, but more likely old corrosion remains. Signs of casting would look completely different.

[Scogg]

Thank you Jean, and Dale! 

The triangular negative space ontop of the leaf is what made me think maple, for some reason. But the more kiri depictions I look at, the more I wonder. Ambiguous leaf might simply fit best. 

As far as the casting goes. I cannot find any discernable "seams" anywhere; and the irregularities appear to be corrosion to my novice eye. Obviously I hope it to be real, so I'm the most biased party here. 

If there are any photos that would help, let me know, and I will do my best. 

If it were real, would anyone be willing to guess on it's age?
Thanks again for everyone's input. I always learn a lot, and appreciate it. 
Cheers,
-Sam

[Robert S]

I agree with Jean Collin.  I don't see any signs of casting on the tsuba.  Nice one!

 

Robert S

[Brian]

No casting there imho.

[Soshin]

  On 4/23/2024 at 11:04 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

Added “Cast?”

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So, newbies in the USA (Dan and Sam S.) now say Owari Tsuba are "cast". I would love to see and feel this tsuba in hand. I don't see anything as such from the limited number of photos provided. What I do see looks to be rust and corrosion damage to the plate surface. There are several iron bones along the rim typical of Owari Sukashi tsuba. If this form lacks high quality examples in excellent conditions to study, I have a few that I can offer to discuss that were once or us still in my collection.          

[Scogg]

  On 4/24/2024 at 11:23 AM, Soshin said:

 

So, newbies in the USA (Dan and Sam S.) now say Owari Tsuba are "cast". I would love to see and feel this tsuba in hand. I don't see anything as such from the limited number of photos provided. What I do see looks to be rust and corrosion damage to the plate surface. There are several iron bones along the rim typical of Owari Sukashi tsuba. If this form lacks high quality examples in excellent conditions to study, I have a few that I can offer to discuss that were once or us still in my collection.          

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Thank you for your input. I am very happy to hear that it’s not cast. 

 

I originally did not think it was cast at all. I’ve enjoyed it in my collection for about a year, and never even considered it being cast. 
 

Dan made the cast suggestion, and I admittedly am too new to argue it. So I added the question to the topic for confirmation from the more experienced like yourself, Jean, Brian and Dale. 

Im glad I did, because y’all have helped confirm it’s not cast. I enjoy admiring it, and have developed a liking to Owari in the process. 
 

Thank you for your input and help,

All the best,

-Sam 
 

[Matsunoki]

  On 4/23/2024 at 11:15 PM, Dan tsuba said:

Take a hammer to it and see if it breaks!

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  On 4/23/2024 at 11:15 PM, Dan tsuba said:

With respect,

Expand  

I think you meant to say “with no respect”?

why do you think it’s good advice to tell someone to “take a hammer to it” when you haven’t got a clue what it is?

[Scogg]

Fear not! No hammer was used in the enjoyment of this tsuba .

I would never. 

I also wish I could get it into David, or Jeans hands. If either of you ever attend the SF or Vegas sword show in the future - I plan to attend them and will bring it along.

I appreciate the discussion,
-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Just some stuff from some of my previous posts on another thread.

 

Nov, 4^th, 2023-

 

“Could anyone actually differentiate between an extremely well-made cast iron tsuba and a well-made hand forged tsuba?

As I have stated previously (several times in this thread) I feel the only way that a determination could be made is to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing (I refer you to Dr. Lissenden's thesis paper and quotes stated in one of my previous posts - to be found on page 12 of this thread - his entire thesis can be found on line).

Until that can be done (or someone is willing to take a hammer to a possible cast iron tsuba!) I think that it would be extremely difficult to make an accurate determination.”

 

January 28^th, 2024- (this quote is referring to another tsuba, not the tsuba shown in the recent posts here)

 

“Obviously that tsuba is made from cast iron.  Whether cast in the Edo period or not is impossible to determine.  Probably the only way to deterimie if it was actually cast would be to subject it to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

I purchased a similar tsuba that was pictured on that water kettle a couple of weeks ago (pictures also attached).  That tsuba has a mei.

There are a plethora of these similar motif tsuba being sold on various purchase sites.

How is it possible to determine a hand forged from a cast iron one of these?  I know that a mei can be “faked”, the tsuba could have been made after the Edo period and a “fake” mei from the Edo period added to that tsuba.  Or the tsuba could have been made in the Edo period with no mei, and a “fake” mei added later.  Or the tsuba and the mei can reflect the actual maker of the tsuba in the Edo period.

Without taking a hammer to the piece and seeing if it is brittle and breaks (cast iron), how does anyone determine such things?

I even have discovered that if a tsuba like this is papered by the NBTHK, it still can be very misleading.  I have found that the old green papers can be incorrect and themselves could have been forged!

 

Are we all just “floundering” around when it comes to the more inexpensive type of iron tsuba and just must take our chances?  Who is right in their determination if a tsuba is hand forged and not cast?  Who is wrong?  I mean can a description of a tsuba being listed by a reputable seller be wrong?

I know, maybe I am just overthinking this thing.  But how can tsuba collectors be certain of anything with so many variables that turn up and present themselves?  I mean is it possible that knowledgeable people could be incorrect in their determination?  I have even heard were the NBTHK could make mistakes!”

 

With respect,

Dan

[Matsunoki]

  On 4/24/2024 at 12:47 PM, Dan tsuba said:

Are we all just “floundering” around

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Well you sure as hell are. Just keep your hammer advice to yourself. 

[Scogg]

No offense Dan, but I was simply asking for the opinions of people more knowledgable than me.

Originally I just wanted to know about the motif - maple or kiri. Your post history and past arguments are irrelevant to me. 

I got this Tsuba originally because I liked it. Simple as that. Floundering? Maybe, but that's my prerogative and $$$. I got it from someone I trust. 
 

  On 4/23/2024 at 11:35 PM, Dan tsuba said:

I am probably totally wrong and don't want to "rain on your parade" (I am certain other members will let me know!!).  But this is what I see!

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You even admitted that you could be wrong, but then downvoted ROKUJURO? I just don't understand that logic. 

Sincerely,
-Sam

[Spartancrest]

  On 4/24/2024 at 1:04 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

Floundering

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Cherry picking words is poor form - Sam and Colin.

I don't mind admitting I often find myself out of my depth in the rather murky waters of tosogu. I will even say I don't know it all - does anyone? "Floundering" is as good a word as any, would "treading deep waters" make people feel better? JMO

 

 

[Scogg]

  On 4/24/2024 at 1:43 PM, Spartancrest said:

Cherry picking words is poor form - Sam and Colin.

I don't mind admitting I often find myself out of my depth in the rather murky waters of tosogu. I will even say I don't know it all - does anyone? "Floundering" is as good a word as any, would "treading deep waters" make people feel better? JMO

 

 

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My apologies, you are right. It's not necessary for me to get defensive.  

I sincerely am just trying to understand what I have, because I don't know. I only meant to ask questions. This thread really took a left turn, and i'm sorry for my part in that. 

I am, 100%, without a doubt, out of my depth with fittings.

Again, my apologies to anyone I offended,
I respect everyones advice, knowledge, and input to this community. 
-Sam

[Matsunoki]

@Spartancrest

Hi Dale, sorry but advising someone to hit it with a hammer is just plain daft and to me very offensive and disrespectful and extremely ill-advised….and deserves to be called out. 
 Had he said something similar on a sword for example the world would come crashing down on him. 

[Curran]

+1 to David Styles and Tasmanian Dale 

Thank you guys.

 

[Scogg]

  On 4/24/2024 at 2:23 PM, Curran said:

+1 to David Styles and Tasmanian Dale 

Thank you guys.

 

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Agreed! Always a big help, and much appreciated. Thank you @Soshin and @Spartancrest; thanks to people like you, I learn a little more every day. 

I hope nobody thinks I was asserting that this Tsuba is cast. It was meant to be a question and not a statement of fact. My apologies.

Curran, that old tsuba you have for sale is really stunning!
Cheers,
-Sam
 

Edited April 24, 2024 by GeorgeLuucas
a thank you

[Curran]

  On 4/24/2024 at 2:28 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

Curran, that old tsuba you have for sale is really stunning!
Cheers,
-Sam
 

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Thank you.

The old ones get en-vogue for a while, but currently seem out of vogue. I thought it would sell fast at that price, but only not too serious tire-kickers.

 

Things like Shingen tsuba, which you couldn't give away 5 years ago, currently seem to be very en-vogue.

[rematron]

  On 4/24/2024 at 2:32 PM, Curran said:

Thank you.

The old ones get en-vogue for a while, but currently seem out of vogue. I thought it would sell fast at that price, but only not too serious tire-kickers.

 

Things like Shingen tsuba, which you couldn't give away 5 years ago, currently seem to be very en-vogue.

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If I had extra money for it, I would buy it in a heartbeat.  I really like that one.

[DirkO]

With all respect to the OP - but this is a cast tsuba. The surface of the tsuba is showing small pitting, the lines and carving are far too evenly soft. But the thing that convinces me the most is the seppa-dai area and how it was worked. The tagane-ato punchmarks are not well-defined and too soft. Please compare this to other papered and known examples, they will not show these features.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

  On 4/24/2024 at 2:06 PM, Matsunoki said:

hit it with a hammer is just plain daft

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A bit daft - but effective. As I found out recently just dropping one accidentally on a tiled floor will give you results you don't want!  

 

To be fair Dan is not the first to espouse this method : - Museum Of Fine Arts Boston - Japanese Sword Guards by Okabe Kakuya

 

   I would love to see one of these Nagoya tsuba with a few dents. Does anyone know of any examples?

[Steves87]

It would be interesting to get a simple poll on this Tsuba to see where the forum really sits.... Is this Tsuba cast? Yes, No.... (no maybe)

 

I honestly cannot be sure, but I think more points to it being traditionally made, versus cast. Iron sukashi is so "easily" reproduced, that is why I tend to focus on inlaid pieces. Having said that, some of the details supporting it as cast, are also found on Tsuba with heavy inlay... if a traditionally made Tsuba with inlay can share the signs we consider as "cast" traits, then why can't an iron sukashi Tsuba also have them without being considered a casting?

[Dan tsuba]

No one can make a determination unless it is subjected to non-invasive metallurgical testing.(as I have stated before in several threads).  Otherwise it is just a "best guess" by those that think they know!!  This is the 21st century!  There has got to be an inexpensive way to test these things!  But does any seller really want to do that?  Imagine the "dollar bills" that would be lost to sellers if a tsuba listed as "hand forged" turns out to be "cast"!  My opinion, but it is all about the "dollar bill"!

 

Just my opinion, my friends!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

One tiny detail in the original images has me wondering? Is this an inclusion, a gouge mark or a sign of layering? 

 

One day in the future we might be able to "virtually" handle each tsuba and give a better conclusion. At the moment it is still informed guesswork for most of us. [still fun though! ]

[DirkO]

I just want to add that @GeorgeLuucas is approaching this in a very good manner - a learning exercise. Other people might disregard anything that doesn't fit their own conclusions, he's keeping an open mind. Social media, search engines, .... are geared nowadays to show you results or news along the lines of your interests. They will enforce your existing ideas and filter out anything with a critical note. People will eat it up as the comfortfood it is. It's something that most people aren't aware of.