Saya

[katonk66]

Hello. This is always been a curiosity of mine, as far as what type of product is utilized to make green and other colored, spreckles ( for lack of better words) in a lacquered saya? Also, are the spreckles inlaid in dark/black urushi then topped off with clear lacquer?

[ROKUJURO]

Henry,

a good photo might be helpful so we know what you mean.

In case you had AOGAI in your mind, it is the mother-of-pearl of the Abalone shell. Lacquer techniques can be very complex and time consuming which explains the cost of a good SAYA.

[katonk66]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Henry,

a good photo might be helpful so we know what you mean.

In case you had AOGAI in your mind, it is the mother-of-pearl of the Abalone shell. Lacquer techniques can be very complex and time consuming which explains the cost of a good SAYA.

 

 

[katonk66]

16 minutes ago, katonk66 said:

 

 

 

[John C]

2 hours ago, katonk66 said:

Also, are the spreckles inlaid in dark/black urushi then topped off with clear lacquer?

Henry:

I'm not sure what was used in this case, however just about anything can be used to create texture. A sealer is applied to the wood or metal (I use shellac) then a layer of guilders size (adhesive). Once tacky, the texture is applied and allowed to dry. It can be lacquered or painted at this point. After one coat, it can be rubbed down to expose more of the texture then lacquered, if desired. That's the basic process, anyway.  

 

John C.

[Franco]

6 hours ago, katonk66 said:

This is always been a curiosity of mine, as far as what type of product is utilized to make green and other colored, spreckles ( for lack of better words) in a lacquered saya?

 

Crushed abalone shell was used.  As well as other materials. 

 

[Brian]

Crushed mica is also used.

[Matsunoki]

….crushed beetle wings are also used  but abalone is by far the most common.

Abalone and mother of pearl are two totally different things. Mother of pearl are the large flat plate shaped shells that give us the following colours when polished…..white, yellow, black, bronze and shades thereof.  Turban shell is also used but that again is a totally different species
Abalone (as used by lacquer artisans) gives us the vibrant iridescent kingfisher blues, pinks, greens and similar. The process of preparing it (as explained to me by someone who knew)  for lacquer usage is as usual with Japanese art, very complex and goes roughly like this….

Firstly the sections containing the desired colours are boiled which separates them into mica-thin layers. These are then crushed to varying degrees  and passed through sieves and filters that can yield particles from dust sized upwards. The desired sized particles are applied to the damp lacquer base using a selection of sieve-like shakers that enable an accurate distribution. Templates and masks can be used to achieve designs.  Further lacquer is applied on top and then polished back to give a smooth surface revealing the iridescent shell embedded.

[Bugyotsuji]

We had this discussion last April! 
Here is one from today.

 

[katonk66]

6 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

….crushed beetle wings are also used  but abalone is by far the most common.

Abalone and mother of pearl are two totally different things. Mother of pearl are the large flat plate shaped shells that give us the following colours when polished…..white, yellow, black, bronze and shades thereof.  Turban shell is also used but that again is a totally different species
Abalone (as used by lacquer artisans) gives us the vibrant iridescent kingfisher blues, pinks, greens and similar. The process of preparing it (as explained to me by someone who knew)  for lacquer usage is as usual with Japanese art, very complex and goes roughly like this….

Firstly the sections containing the desired colours are boiled which separates them into mica-thin layers. These are then crushed to varying degrees  and passed through sieves and filters that can yield particles from dust sized upwards. The desired sized particles are applied to the damp lacquer base using a selection of sieve-like shakers that enable an accurate distribution. Templates and masks can be used to achieve designs.  Further lacquer is applied on top and then polished back to give a smooth surface revealing the iridescent shell embedded.

Hello and thank you. So, after the product is sieved onto the wet lacquer, is it topped with clear lacquer or the base lacquer. I was just wondering, as the product used may cause the surface to be uneven and bumpy, even after sanding and polishing?

[katonk66]

How can one tell how old a saya is? Well, more-or-less a date range?

[Matsunoki]

Techniques can vary but commonly the “shell” is sieved onto damp base colour lacquer. The further coats of base colour are applied over the top. When fully hardened the whole is polished down to a smooth surface until the shell emerges. The “inlaid” shell is also polished in that process but the skill is obviously in not polishing too deeply. The aogai can tolerate polishing and indeed it can change colour and iridescence in the process. A clear coat is probably applied over it but I’m not totally sure on that. Perhaps wax was used? ….anyone else chip in?

 

59 minutes ago, katonk66 said:

 

How can one tell how old a saya is? Well, more-or-less a date range?

 

A very very rough guide……flashy saya are more likely to be Edo, especially late Edo. Workmanlike saya often with heavy polished black lacquer stand a chance of being older. Remember saya that saw use were often damaged and replaced.  The overall condition is sometimes the best guide but even that can be distorted by simple neglect or storage in adverse conditions. Simple truth…..no easy way to tell. 

[Franco]

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

A clear coat is probably applied over it

 

Yes, urushi lacquer. Don't recall anything else being mentioned. 

[Matsunoki]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

We had this discussion last April! 

Thus causing further concern re my memory🙂

[Franco]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Remember saya that saw use were often damaged and replaced.

 

The section of the saya I posted above comes from an old original saya that could date anywhere from the early part of 1700's onward. This saya/koshirae was most definitely used and even sports an old repair that is visible in the image above.

In the image below the obi wear is clearly visible. The change in color is due to the lighting.

 

[Brian]

It takes MANY layers of urushi to do a proper job....don't remember how many, but it's a time consuming job that takes years to perfect.
Here's some info on the process: https://www.inkedhap...reveals-the-secrets/