Two similar tsuba puzzle

[Bugyotsuji]

Sold as Dai/Sho, both are iron and fairly large, both have 24 petals (菊花 Kik-ka) and both have a kōgai-ana on omoté left, suggesting use for tachi. (?)
Dai: 9.3 x 9.3 x 0.5

Sho: 8.8 x 8.55 x 0.45

My guess is Muromachi~Momoyama.

So how could they be Dai-sho? Should I really be keeping them together? Why are these unsigned chrysanthemum tsuba called Saotomé? Etc., etc.

 

 

[Alex A]

Hi Piers, no expert

 

The most obvious difference is one seems to have delicate thin metal around the kogai ana, the other quite thick.

 

Patina, level of surface pitting seems to differ between them.

 

Both large as you point out

 

Get the impression someone paired them together at some point. 

 

Impossible to say when but who knows, perhaps a previous owner in the past knows they were paired together, family history.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the comments, Alex, helping to advance the game.
The larger one seems to be closer to a perfect ‘maru-gata’ circle. The Tagane hits around the seppa dai are different too.

Possibly an owner kept both as alternatives for a particular tachi…(?)

[Steves87]

I think they they work well as a married daisho. As Alex pointed out though, the difference in metal thickness around the hitsu-ana is the most obvious difference between the two, followed closely by the slightly different shape of the two hitsu-ana. These two differences are probably what makes them not a "true" daisho in my opinion. 

I think the surface condition between the two is acceptable as there is no guarantee that a daisho would be stored in a daisho kiribako, which leads to the possibility of different rates of storage/environmental conditions (that can subsequently lead to degradation). The tagane ato, if added when fitting (and not as decoration) does not need to be similar, as this can be needed at differing times from multiple fitment activities. Having said that though, if both are fitted at the same time by the same person, I would expect that (like me) they choose the same punch/method/locations?

I think the size relationship is also acceptable, being large is typical, and if your have a large Katana guard, you don't want a comparitively miniature Wakizashi daisho guard.

[Alex A]

Another reason for the difference in condition. Didn't some Samurai walk about with just a wak a lot of the time? at the end of the Edo?

 

Sometimes, 2 swords where size was not that much different. As in nakago ana size.

 

Guess we will never know. 

 

Can understand someone wanting a matching set of these type of tsuba in particular,

 

I do............ lol.  Have one similar made from copper, had a chance to acquire one to match but other commitments. Kick myself a bit for that, would have made a nice display.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Someone posted a painting on the NMB of a mounted bushi with this kind of tsuba on his tachi. Artistic license perhaps, but a nice picture.

Now, where was it...?

[Spartancrest]

Piers I think I have the Dai to those little guards.   I can't find a box big enough to put mine in !

[Alex A]

Dale, are you sure its not a wagon wheel?

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm… Dale, you beat me on another one I have which is 10.6 x 10.8 cm, but, but, but, …it does have a box! 
 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

are you sure its not a wagon wheel?

I did wonder what happened to the other three?

 

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

…it does have a box! 

I might be able to use my wife's hat box?

 

Piers I like the fine nature of the spokes on yours, very elegant. 

[Bugyotsuji]

One of the artisans at Osafune looked at it for a while and then declared, "It would take me six months of hard work to make one of these!

[Spartancrest]

How long to make this?    [from 2013]

[Dan tsuba]

Is that "manhole cover" type tsuba hand forged or cast!!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc.  Just having some fun!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Alex A]

These Saotome threads always end up with a size discussion

 

Did have one once, not so big as you guys (sounds well)

 

Surprisingly heavy, got the impression ok for a battlefield,

[Bugyotsuji]

On one Japanese site I visited there was a photo of some fragments of stone molds with this chrysanthemum design, suggesting that some tsuba of this type at least were cast.

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks for that insight, my friend, stating "suggesting that some tsuba of this type at least were cast".

 

Oh no!  Here we go again!  Just kidding!!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Bugyotsuji]

Not forgetting of course that many of this type are in softer metals.

[Bugyotsuji]

Chatting to a tsuba collector today and he said that the Kōgai Hitsu ana is not specifically for a Kōgai. As an example he mentioned tsuba with Kōgai ana on both sides. The smaller extra cutaway does not indicate such a strictly limited function, he said. No problem to pass the end of a Kozuka handle through there, he said.

[Bugyotsuji]

In other words, if you consider the double-bubble hole a kozuka hitsu ana, then these tsuba are not necessarily for a tachi...

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

not necessarily for a tachi

Might they be 'revival' pieces, harking back to the distant past but at the same time having "modern" convenience features, I.e. the hitsu? That 'big' one of mine also should not have a hitsu-ana if it was originally for a tachi [or nodachi 野太刀?] and it is obvious in all the cases they were not added later. No real idea what is true but I do like the mystery of it all.  [ boring if there are no secrets to uncover, I love it!]

[Bugyotsuji]

Mysteries we like, agreed.