Translation help with Signature on Gunto

[Skeezy Bojangle]

Hi, recently acquired this old Gunto, blade is traditionally made so "woot" for that. Cannot make hide or tails out of the signature. I'm assuming it's the name of the family who owned it. I'm attaching two pics, one is with three lights on it (the hilt is very dark so it's hard to read otherwise) and second pic I modified to help the signiture pop in different ways. I figured everyones monitor is a different calibration so I thought it might be helpful. Thanks for any information you can share, very much appreciated!

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Pics of the entire blade/sword please. When we are seeing there suggests Chinese fake or at least an added signature.
Signatures are usually the smith btw, not the person who owned it.

[ROKUJURO]

Looks like an attempt to write MASAHIRO (or MASAMITSU), but was obviously not chiselled by a Japanese. As Brian says, there is a big doubt that the sword is Japanese at all. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the clear photos.

Sadly, this badly-written Mei looks like an added-value attempt to deceive potential buyers.

[Bruce Pennington]

Even 

政広 (Masahiro)

三品 一夫

 

But badly written with wrong Masa

[Kiipu]

Maybe an attempt at Masahiro?

三？正広 ?? Masahiro

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

Maybe an attempt at Masahiro?

三？正広 ?? Masahiro

@BANGBANGSAN

三品正広 wanna be

[Skeezy Bojangle]

Best I could muster was Mi ? Masahiro. I'm on a trip on the moment so only have those pics on me. But will post again when I get back with pics of the blade and the informal gunto stuff.

 

Update: Also little worries about it being fake. While I understand that is always possible, I'm not new to antiques (though violins are my strong suite) and I purchased it from a reputable seller who specializes on Japanese antiques.

 

My thought process is the owner engraved it and that's why it's so hard to read. Gunto has warrent officer blue and brown tassel. Leather case with wooden saya inside. Has the civilian tsuba (flowers) So it's proabably from a gunzoku I think. I dunno, just having fun digging around about the blade's history.

[Bruce Pennington]

Would enjoy seeing photos of all that, Kevin!

 

Small correction - the blue/brown tassel was Company grade, Lt's & Capt's.  The equivalent rank of Gunzoku were allowed to use them, too.  So, with the sakura tsuba, you're right, it was probably carried by a Koutou-kan.

[Skeezy Bojangle]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Would enjoy seeing photos of all that, Kevin!

 

Small correction - the blue/brown tassel was Company grade, Lt's & Capt's.  The equivalent rank of Gunzoku were allowed to use them, too.  So, with the sakura tsuba, you're right, it was probably carried by a Koutou-kan.

Oh okay! So for the ranks for the Gunzoku were a bit different than the regular imperial army. Excellent info! Always love learning more. Have a book or two coming in that really focuses on these times so I can brush up.

 

Definitely will get those pics in for you. Other than some minor rust it's in pretty good condition. No rot on the leather. Had to reglue the wood scabbard as it was seperating but overall it's a beauty.

 

When I first looked it over I checked for the usual stuff, faked patina, a number stamp in the wrong place, like on the habaki, ECT ect. But when I picked it up, felt the balance, looked over the geometry of the blade and even under the little rust the old polish still makes you pause.  Hada present, nice grain, beautiful hamon.

 

After I'm back from my trip I'll give it the rust a little attention and see how it cleans up and then take some photos.

 

And don't worry for those of you likely gasped at any mention of cleaning/polishhing! I'll approach a "cleaning" the same way I do antique books or violins that have old metalwork decorations, gold leaf, etc etc.

 

Which, without going  detail can be summed up simply as nothing abrasive, check your work constantly, take your time. And personally I like doing it on camera under microscope, but that's just my paranoia built up from violin restoration. (Keyword: ground. Never break the paper thing margin. Will drop a 50k to 5 bucks in two seconds!)

 

Now, question along these lines. I know generally bone is okay for slight rusts on most metals, even most softer metals. However some metals react negatively to certain animal bones. Does traditional Japanese steel have anything like that. Where it has a reaction to certain animal bones or hell, even proteins?

 

I couldn't find anything in particular other than antlers and bone tend to be acceptable in general.  But I thought I'd ask while I have the attention of the experts here.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Lots of guys recommend antler for removing rust.  I think it was in reference to removing it from nakago, not the blade, but I could be wrong on that.  I'd personally not use it on the blade.

 

Here's the breakdown on their ranks, from a discussion by Nick Komiya here - Regs for Army Civilians to Carry Swords

 

"Firstly, Gunzoku (軍属) or civilians in military service seems a confusing concept to some, so I’ll need to briefly explain what sort of people they were.

There were 4 ranks of civilian grades in the army.

1. Younin (傭人) were hired laborers. For instance, barbers and laundry workers were such civilians.

2. Ko-in (雇員) hired admin helpers for the office (treated as equivalent of a Lance Corporal) .

3. Hanin-kan (判任官), who were civilian equivalents of NCOs, carrying out legal, accounting, machine maintenance and other duties.

4. Koutou-kan (高等官), who comprised the officer class equivalents from lieutenant to general. Such people included teachers of non-military subjects in military schools, interpreters, legal specialists, etc.

Finally onto the sword regulations for the people above. There was a revision to the Army Gunzoku uniform regulations in August 1940, so I will simply quote the sword section from that.

Koutou-kan were to wear the sword, tassel and sword belt of army officers equivalent in rank. Hanin-kan and Ko-in ranks were to wear an army company grade officer sword, belt and tassel. However, the rear side color of the belt and tassel were to be brown."

 

And after re-reading that, I can see that the Hanin-kan were premitted to use the blue/brown tassel, too.

[The Blacksmith]

To be honest Kevin, I'd really suggest doing absolutely nothing until you have posted pictures of the fittings and the complete blade. The polish , as I am sure you are aware already, can easily be ruined by well meaning owners. There are some very knowledgeable people here who will be able and willing to guide you on the best course of action given the blades condition. 

 

Welcome to the forum by the way!

 

Russ

[Skeezy Bojangle]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Lots of guys recommend antler for removing rust.  I think it was in reference to removing it from nakago, not the blade, but I could be wrong on that.  I'd personally not use it on the blade.

 

Here's the breakdown on their ranks, from a discussion by Nick Komiya here - Regs for Army Civilians to Carry Swords

 

"Firstly, Gunzoku (軍属) or civilians in military service seems a confusing concept to some, so I’ll need to briefly explain what sort of people they were.

There were 4 ranks of civilian grades in the army.

1. Younin (傭人) were hired laborers. For instance, barbers and laundry workers were such civilians.

2. Ko-in (雇員) hired admin helpers for the office (treated as equivalent of a Lance Corporal) .

3. Hanin-kan (判任官), who were civilian equivalents of NCOs, carrying out legal, accounting, machine maintenance and other duties.

4. Koutou-kan (高等官), who comprised the officer class equivalents from lieutenant to general. Such people included teachers of non-military subjects in military schools, interpreters, legal specialists, etc.

Finally onto the sword regulations for the people above. There was a revision to the Army Gunzoku uniform regulations in August 1940, so I will simply quote the sword section from that.

Koutou-kan were to wear the sword, tassel and sword belt of army officers equivalent in rank. Hanin-kan and Ko-in ranks were to wear an army company grade officer sword, belt and tassel. However, the rear side color of the belt and tassel were to be brown."

 

And after re-reading that, I can see that the Hanin-kan were premitted to use the blue/brown tassel, too.

 

Oh sweet lord! I knew the whole Gunzoku thing was a can of worms, but boy that does seem more confusing than I originally anticipated. Absolutely fascinating! Thank you for the excellent info Bruce.

 

11 hours ago, The Blacksmith said:

To be honest Kevin, I'd really suggest doing absolutely nothing until you have posted pictures of the fittings and the complete blade. The polish , as I am sure you are aware already, can easily be ruined by well meaning owners. There are some very knowledgeable people here who will be able and willing to guide you on the best course of action given the blades condition. 

 

Welcome to the forum by the way!

 

Russ

 

Indeed, that is good advice. I realize I know just enough to likely get myself into trouble. So I will take you up on that

 

I've done nothing to the blade and only have repaired the saya since it was splitting and I feared the blade would cut into the old leather cover.

 

I shall keep the blade itself to a light oiling with a microfiber cloth then. Choji oil seems to be the generally accepted oil, but I do not have that in my workshop. However, I do have some good quality mineral oil that I have already pre-strained. That should be acceptable, yes?

 

And thank you! I very much appreciate the forum members guidance on this fun new hobby of mine.

[The Blacksmith]

Choji oil is clove oil, and whilst not quite the same as choji oil bought for the purpose, you can get clove oil from a chemist, as it is used for dental pain. I used to use it on my blades when I was collecting  them. Cheap, effective, and smells great. I have heard somewhere that it was said that the weather was suppose to change when a sword was drawn in a house, as the gorgeous strong smell of the choji was thought to remind one of summer. I cannot remember where I read that, but it is a nice story. Perhaps this too gave rise to the myth of perfumed blades, as a blade once oiled with choji oil can smell of it for years afterwards, even if the oil is totally removed. I hope you like the smell of cloves!

 

Russ

[Brian]

Clove oil is not what you should be using. It can stain a blade and has minimal rust resistance. DON'T use pure clove oil. Choji oil is light mineral oil (like sewing machine oil) with a few drops of clove oil added for scent.

[The Blacksmith]

Obviously Brian not preferable to the real thing admittedly (when it is the 'real thing' bought from a reputable dealer that is!).  However, I used clove oil on my blades quite a bit, without any problems. I never had any problems with staining either it must be said, though the slightly thicker clove oil did seem to darken slightly the shinogi  and the jigane of a Kanezane blade that I had, but that was the only one, and I always put that down to the metal that he used in that particular blade (?) 

The clove oil that I used was thicker than commercially bought choji oil, but when I applied it I always wiped of most of it afterwards anyway, leaving just a very thin film on the blade, so it never seemed to be a problem.

For the record, I cleaned and oiled all my blades twice a year as a matter of routine. How often do other people clean and oil their blades?