Opinions on this cut test mei

[John C]

Just curious what you all think about the legitimacy of this cut test. Trying to learn more about them. The tester is not listed in Guido Shiller's "List of popular sword testers in saidan-mei".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166679064949

 

John C. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It may be correct, it has been inlaid with some degree of skill. The issue is the Mei is very suspect, which pulls everything into question.

[David Flynn]

The answer is the seller.

[John C]

3 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

it has been inlaid with some degree of skill.

I was trying to look for signs of it being inlaid or written on the surface. I found a couple of spots where I can see a shadow (indicating inlay) and the rust is covering some characters but I'm still learning what to look for. Does it seem "too" nice for 1670??

John C.

p.s. not interested in buying just learning.

[Brian]

3 hours ago, David Flynn said:

The answer is the seller.

This. Always this.

[Salvatore]

Hello, I don't know too much but I think this is gimei. Because the inscription of testing is not so good, the inscription of Kotetsu is a little bit different in letter by letter and the nakago jiri is different too from other genuine Kotetsu.

[Bruce Pennington]

I checked @Markus Sesko's book, Tameshigiri.  He has 100 names in the Edo period that did testing, but Jurobei is not on the list.  He points out that some of them had other jobs and did testing on the side.  I found a Jurobei, a samurai, in this Myths and Legands - The Quest of the Sword.  If he was a real person, and not a myth, he could have done a testing on the side.  Or the Japanese faker that sells through Komonjo took the name from the myth.  No way to know.

[Nobody]

Here is an NBTHK Hozon mumei katana with Okada Jurobei’s kiritsukemei. So, he seems to be a real person, though Kotetsu mei may be questionable.

 

Ref. 日本刀 刀 無銘（越前関）（銀象嵌）下ヲケス工落岡田十郎兵衛重長（花押）試焉 （金象嵌）ニツ胴入土壇村井三丞長止（花押）試焉 ｜日本刀 刀剣販売 e-sword

[Lewis B]

Gold doesn't rust. Seems suspicious.

 

Curious regarding the seller. Seems to have a strong presence on Ebay, but often his listings carry disclaimers. Never dealt with him bar sending a few questions about swords he has had listed. Unreliable?

[John C]

45 minutes ago, Corradobrit said:

Unreliable?

 

Well...he does sell real swords but with a huge caveat. Everything will have some sort of flaw, defect, or other issue (such as gimei). He leaves it up to the buyer to figure it out and bid accordingly. So basically think used car salesman presenting a BMW. Is it a BMW? Yes - but ask why it's being sold in the used car lot and not the new car lot.

 

51 minutes ago, Corradobrit said:

Gold doesn't rust.

I think the rust is on top of the gold in this case.

John C.

[Tengu1957]

As a person who collects test cut swords I would say without a NBTHK paper all test cuts are suspect. If it's on a big name blade without a paper then it's a high chance it's fake as well. The test cuts were very expensive so it doesn't have to be a big name on the sword to be true but why would you want a legit test cut on a gimei sword ? 

[DoTanuki yokai]

 I did not know Kotetsu signed Wakizashi with Tachi Mei and another guess is that the blade could be Mumei when it was tested 

 

 

[2devnul]

@Brian @David Flynn

 

Can you please elaborate more about your opinion of Komonjo? This is important to me as I'm tracking his offers and even tried to (lost on auction) buy something from him. 

 

From what I'm seeing, his so called Gendaito swords (with his comment ' bid on steel, not the mei') are made outside of Japan reproductions. With fancy Mei and same type of polish (same polisher or smith?). Koshirae (the 'new look' ones) are Chinese or Iaito-poor type fittings. 

 

What about old swords? Quiet often I see NBTHK (usually old ones) papers attached. 

[GeorgeLuucas]

52 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

@Brian @David Flynn

 

Can you please elaborate more about your opinion of Komonjo? This is important to me as I'm tracking his offers and even tried to (lost on auction) buy something from him. 

 

From what I'm seeing, his so called Gendaito swords (with his comment ' bid on steel, not the mei') are made outside of Japan reproductions. With fancy Mei and same type of polish (same polisher or smith?). Koshirae (the 'new look' ones) are Chinese or Iaito-poor type fittings. 

 

What about old swords? Quiet often I see NBTHK (usually old ones) papers attached. 

Hi Adam,

I'll speak from my personal experience...

 

Earlier in my collecting, I was mostly focused on military swords and other general militaria. I wanted a Japanese parade sabre, because they're typically so cheap, and he also had another lower-end item I wanted.

I bid on both - I wanted them, so I bid slightly higher than I expected them to go... Both items went to exactly $0.50 under my max bid. I found that extremely suspicious. Long story short, I acquired the items and they remain in my collection. They also appear worse in person than they did in the photos, and they had some flaws that were not highlighted in the listing. A few hundred dollars later - lesson learned. If I had searched this forum, I would have probably avoided the blunder.

I am sure David and Brian have even better warning tales.

All the best,
-Sam

[Brian]

Easy enough to search the forum for his name and read the threads.
If you buy something with old papers, you can be pretty sure it failed subsequent shinsa or would not paper again.

[John C]

5 hours ago, 2devnul said:

Can you please elaborate more about your opinion of Komonjo? This is important to me as I'm tracking his offers and even tried to (lost on auction) buy something from him. 

 

From what I'm seeing, his so called Gendaito swords (with his comment ' bid on steel, not the mei') are made outside of Japan reproductions. With fancy Mei and same type of polish (same polisher or smith?). Koshirae (the 'new look' ones) are Chinese or Iaito-poor type fittings. 

 

What about old swords? Quiet often I see NBTHK (usually old ones) papers attached.

Adam:

I personally do not think he is as bad as some others on Ebay. I have bought two swords from him - both ww2 era so I knew what I was getting. The transactions went smoothly and the swords were just as described. For nihonto, you really need to be educated because he will not make a commitment about the condition of the sword. He expects the buyer to know what they are looking at. 

Many of his "gendaito" appear to have the same nakago, hamon, etc. and always come with the warning "unproven signature. Bid on the steel." I would stay away from these, personally, unless you just want something for tamashigiri or iaido. 

I too have noticed his swords listed with origami are usually pre-1980 green papers. I would treat these as un-papered swords. He does have some swords with current origami and I know he sells on consignment, so maybe these are okay.

Just my two cents.

John C.

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Thank you gentlemen for your comments. I also asked around Polish community yesterday afternoon. I bumped into Iaido Sensei who apparently bought few "Gendaito" for his students. He seems to follow same narration about these swords. They look like being made by same smith, same polisher, outside of Japan. Although, he says these are quiet good replicas (comparing to other Chinese reproductions) suitable for Tameshigiri. That was also the purpose, to use these swords for cutting without remorse. 

 

Koshirae also was described as poorly made, and he advised to buy raw blade and order new Koshirae. In general it looks like these swords are good as a 'tool' but nothing worth time from collectors perspective (talking still about Gendaito). 

 

Anyway, I will look for more forum topics before I decide to buy something. His pricing (auction) and shipment (USA, no issue from there) are tempting.