Turn Into Machete or Restore?

[cluckdaddy76]

This is what was listed as the "project" blade in the collection I now own and was by far in the worst condition out of the blades. Habaki will not come off yet. The only good news is that this is a beefy little wakizashi with some hamon activity and do not see any forging flaws. But it is rusted all over the surface. There is no signature on the nakago. There may be a possibility nakago was shaved down a bit to fit a homemade handle, but not certain about this. To mee one side has better file marks and one side seems smoother and a bit strange. The actual blade is also much thicker than the nakago. My basic question is this, does anyone with knowledge see something where this is worth preserving? I have made rash decisions in the past, so before I have the best garden tool on the street, I am looking for feedback. I will most likely use it as a project piece myself unless I am told differently. Also, aside from the wiping and choji oil, should I do anything else with this blade to help keep it up? It is currently stored in a regular saya, I do not have shirasaya for this one.  Thanks for any help.

 

[Ray Singer]

I'm of the opinion that any antique traditionally made Japanese sword deserves more than to be turned into a machete or garden tool. This appears to be an old Mino blade. This is a preservation-based group, so perhaps not the best thing to discuss using it for "project" work. 

[John C]

Again, agree with Ray. The habaki will come off unless epoxied. Place the edge of a piece of wood or a chopstick on the habaki at the places indicated and tap downward, alternating between sides. In addition, the rust can be mitigated. Search the forum and several methods will pop up.

 

John C. 

[cluckdaddy76]

And this is why I have finally learned to ask before just doing, only took about 47 years It has a very nice feel in hand and I can see some nice activity under the rust but can't tell much about the hada in current condition. I will upgrade this one and maybe I will make this one my first full restoration piece. 

[Jon]

That’s a lot of active rust…this one need oil asap…..clean the blade carefully with 95% isopropyl ( watch out for the rust coming off as you clean and scrapping/damaging other parts of the blade…then oil..so this regularly until the rust turns black.

 

watch out for any rust hanging around inside the Shirasaya.

 

This may be a blade that needs a professional view on polishing. 

[ChrisW]

Get this in front of a traditionally trained polisher.

Some options include: Bob Benson or Woody Hall.

[cluckdaddy76]

Thanks everyone, I will continue with cleaning and oil. Jon , not sure if this matters but these pics were done in almost completely dark room with flash. In normal light I have gotten this rust looking darker, but I was actually surprised how red it was when I viewed these pics. Thanks for the help.

  On 3/29/2024 at 12:51 AM, Jon said:

That’s a lot of active rust…this one need oil asap…..clean the blade carefully with 95% isopropyl ( watch out for the rust coming off as you clean and scrapping/damaging other parts of the blade…then oil..so this regularly until the rust turns black.

 

watch out for any rust hanging around inside the Shirasaya.

 

This may be a blade that needs a professional view on polishing. 

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[Rivkin]

I would find some polisher ready to confine/remove red rust for not a lot of money. This is not a blade which will pay off to repolish, but a shallow red rust can be helped (usually).

[dkirkpatrick]

This brings up an interesting topic.  What is to be done with swords like this (and worse) that don’t even come close to justify polishing time and money?  Are there polishers in Japan early in apprenticeships that can work on these and even if not finished at high level, appropriately conserve these and bring out at least some appreciable aspects within a reasonable time frame/cost?  Guessing much of this work would also have to be done on synthetic stones as I suspect it’s not cost effective to expend the finite supply of natural material.  Not really expecting a clear answer just wondering in general and about what may be done with some of the lower tier items in my own collection.

 

Doug

[John C]

  On 3/29/2024 at 8:25 PM, dkirkpatrick said:

Not really expecting a clear answer just wondering in general and about what may be done with some of the lower tier items in my own collection.

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Doug:

My opinion on this is different than most so I'll chime in a bit with my rationale. I guess it boils down to preservation vs. restoration. I prefer to preserve rather than restore if I don't think a polish is worth it- this means I prefer to do the least amount necessary to make the sword presentable. 

For example, in the pics below, I bought a star-stamped gendaito that had quite a few rust spots, including on both sides of the edge in the same place. My concern was whether or not the rust went through the blade at that spot. I could send it to a polisher, however if the rust went through I would have a polished blade with a hole in the edge. If I left the rust, I would be inviting further damage and if I stabilized the rust the blade was not really presentable. So in this particular case, I took some micro-sanding pads (ranging from 1800-12,000 grit) and, using only water as a lubricant, sanded down just the top layer of rust on the spots, working through the progression of grits. I finished with a slurry made of water and diatomaceous earth. NOTE: I did not polish the blade!!!! I only sanded the rust spots!! In addition, I only sanded down to the level of the blade. Any further, and it would have left a divot. This removed most of the rust while preserving the hamon and the original polish.

Now that I can see the rust did not extend through the blade, I could send it to a polisher if I choose or leave it as is, which is pretty presentable. 

Again, just my take on it - but it really depends on the extent of the damage and the cost of the polish.

John C.

[George KN]

Just my two pennies worth as a novice collector - every genuinely made sword is worthy of respect and preservation, and the original sword here being discussed looks in a lot better shape than the majority I've seen in my local auctions! It certainly has both financial, historic, and artistic value even as it is.
 

  On 3/28/2024 at 11:38 PM, cluckdaddy76 said:

Also, aside from the wiping and choji oil, should I do anything else with this blade to help keep it up

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To me the rust on this blade doesn't actually look deep - I suspect if it is kept in the dry/low humidity conditions and given regular cleaning cycles with a cotton cloth followed by coatings of oil the rust would eventually dry up and begin flaking off - it certainly doesn't look like a lost cause by any stretch of the imagination!

 

What I wouldn't do is touch it with anything abrasive at all, sandpaper included. Obviously opinions of what counts as preservation vary, but I would say just stopping the rust from further damaging the blade is much more important than attempting to make it look shiny again, e.g. the goal is turning the red rust black.

 

Personally I'd be a hundred times happier buying a blade with a bit of extra patina on it than having a bunch of scratches  (And this is something I've learnt the hard way myself whilst trying to remove rust from tsuba and scratching them myself - it can be very hard striking the right balance between preservation and restoration)

[John C]

  On 3/29/2024 at 10:42 PM, Ghoul414 said:

bit of extra patina on it than having a bunch of scratches

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And there's the rub (no pun intended). Having a rust spot or micro-sized scratches - it's one or the other at this point. In my case, the blade was already scratched, so I went with removing the rust. Also, moving through the 1800 to 12,000 grit is actually finer than a polishing stone and keeping it ONLY on the rust spots does no more damage than the rust is doing. But I probably wouldn't do it if I felt the rust was surface only and the integrity of the blade was not in question. Stabilize then get a polish at that point. 

John C.

[John C]

Here is a follow-up. Majority of rust removed (spots do not look that dark in person). These spots were on opposite sides of the blade in the same place and I was concerned they may have eaten a hole through  the blade. Please notice there are no visible scratches and the hamon has not been affected, as it would have been with a chemical rust remover. Now that I know the edge is in tact, I can send it to a polisher if I choose to. 

John C.