Identification, unknown tanto

[Salvatore]

Hello, if it possible any information because I think the shape is a little bit strange for tanto. Nagasa is about 22 cm.

[Salvatore]

[Salvatore]

[Salvatore]

[Salvatore]

[Salvatore]

[Ray Singer]

Unfortunately this appears to be a fake. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

It is made in China and exists in many variations from different sellers with or without hamon or folded steel but all of them have the same shape and Hi 

 

Etsy

[Salvatore]

18 minutes ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

It is made in China and exists in many variations from different sellers with or without hamon or folded steel but all of them have the same shape and Hi 

 

Etsy

It could be but I don't think that it is something new because from more closer it looks something old and I can see patina too.

Maybe a fake one like Ray said. An old fake tanto to seems like a "small katana"? I don't know.

[2devnul]

Hi,

IMHO there are ways (chemicals/acid) which allow you to make 'fake patina'. Please have a look on below Nakago. It is from Shinsakuto sword, unknown smith (maybe not even Japanese). Patina there looks pretty close to 'real' one. I'm sure there are ways to produce rust/patina like yours in a short time too. 

 

 

 

[Salvatore]

41 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

Hi,

IMHO there are ways (chemicals/acid) which allow you to make 'fake patina'. Please have a look on below Nakago. It is from Shinsakuto sword, unknown smith (maybe not even Japanese). Patina there looks pretty close to 'real' one. I'm sure there are ways to produce rust/patina like yours in a short time too. 

 

 

 

Well, this is for sure a pretty good information and example. As I am conservator of antiquities, except my coffee company, I know that they can make rust but until now I wasn't sure for patina too. Always learning of course.

 

I really appreciate it and thank you so much for your knowledge that you shared!

[ROKUJURO]

Salvatore,

red rust is not patina. 

[Salvatore]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Salvatore,

red rust is not patina. 

I can see the patina under the rust.

Maybe it's difficult for someone to see that in photos.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Maybe i wasn't clear about it but im sure it is one of this chinese Tanto i linked because i also own one that was a gift from an martial arts equipment store where i ordered something.

I have modiefied a lot of things on this Tanto but i think it is clear that it is from the same factory.

Look at the Hi and the Hamachi and overall shape, i could change the Nakagojiri in a few minutes if you are still not convinced.

 

 

[2devnul]

@DoTanuki yokai

 

... and you have nice 'patina' on Nakago too

[DoTanuki yokai]

Just some messing around with hydrogenperoxid 

[Apercus]

There are many books and recipes for producing patinas on metals. I have several.  Anyone with the time and resources to allow for experimentation should be able to produce an acceptable patina. Luckily, most who produce artificial patinas are not patient or fail to put out the effort to do it well. If you find a technique that works well please don’t publish it. We don’t want to educate grifters.

[Salvatore]

Well, I took it to the Ephorate of Antiquities because as conservator of antiquities I know some people there and they would examine it a little bit without revealing it to others. The result is that the patina is old, we don't know the date because I had to let it there for a long time and I can't without making papers but for sure it isn't new. So it is an old blade and for some reason they made it like this.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Another one 

 

Just to summarize: you come with a “strange shape” (your words) Tanto and everyone is telling you the shape is strange because it is made in China and I show you evidence but I can’t convince you.  
If I accidentally try again to help you remind me pls that I waste my time. 

[2devnul]

@Salvatore

 

Please note that nobody here wants to do harm. There is no point in giving you false advises. We all just comment about what we see and (again) it seems that what you have in your hands is NOT a Nihonto. 

 

With respect to antique experts you spoke with, what do they mean by saying 'old'? Is it 20-50-100 years? Do they have knowledge about Nihonto or were just commenting on the steel erosion level? Please also note that in your case, at least from pictures, it is more of a rust then patina.

 

To summary, blade that you have could be 30-40 years old, with 'real' rust on it. However, that doesn't change it is not a historical Nihonto. 

 

PS. Please see bellow pictures of patina from one of mine Wakizashi. It is almost 400 years old sword. Do you see the difference? 

[2devnul]

One more picture, just in case you ask "how do you know it is REAL historical Nihonto". 

 

[Salvatore]

Really now, why do you fight me?

Did I say that it is a real Nihonto?

 

As I said at my first comment, I believe that it is a fake one. Now I'm just saying that it is an older blade and not a "today" blade. And of course not much old. I have never said that it is a real Nihonto. I'm just saying my thoughts about a fake blade for a discussion with you without arguing and you just fight me with no reason.

 

Anyway, thank you and I don't need any more DISCUSSION as I just wanted to start, without readind and understanding what I'm saying and of course not waste your time.

 

 

[2devnul]

34 minutes ago, Salvatore said:

Really now, why do you fight me?

Did I say that it is a real Nihonto?

 

As I said at my first comment, I believe that it is a fake one. Now I'm just saying that it is an older blade and not a "today" blade. And of course not much old. I have never said that it is a real Nihonto. I'm just saying my thoughts about a fake blade for a discussion with you without arguing and you just fight me with no reason.

 

Anyway, thank you and I don't need any more DISCUSSION as I just wanted to start, without readind and understanding what I'm saying and of course not waste your time.

 

 

 

No one fights you, please don't take it personally. 

 

Well, you 'said' it is Nihonto by opening topic in Nihonto section of this forum 

 

Anyway, stick around on forum and don't be afraid to ask questions, but also don't be offended with replies. Cheers!

[Salvatore]

37 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

 

No one fights you, please don't take it personally. 

 

Well, you 'said' it is Nihonto by opening topic in Nihonto section of this forum 

 

Anyway, stick around on forum and don't be afraid to ask questions, but also don't be offended with replies. Cheers!

I haven't something with you.

Yes I opened the topic as unknown tanto but later I said yes it is a fake one.

 

I just wanted to discuss some thoughts keeping the opinion of a fake one and the other person "DoTanuki yokai" put out a fighting style on me, everyone can understand but noone saying it.

Anyway let's let it because I don't want to "waste" his time for just a discussion with same opinion as me about a fake one.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Maybe I overreact but when I read some experts for antiques say this rust is old I’m done. In my opinion it just looks like it was stored in a high humidity environment for some weeks or months or maybe a few years depending on the surface condition.
I also maybe misinterpreted you comments because we see here so many people that refuse to accept advise that start to argue with opinions of non accepted experts in the Nihonto world. I’m sorry and I definetly don’t want to start a fight or stop you from learning about Nihonto it is just frustrating from time to time.

[Salvatore]

1 hour ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Maybe I overreact but when I read some experts for antiques say this rust is old I’m done. In my opinion it just looks like it was stored in a high humidity environment for some weeks or months or maybe a few years depending on the surface condition.
I also maybe misinterpreted you comments because we see here so many people that refuse to accept advise that start to argue with opinions of non accepted experts in the Nihonto world. I’m sorry and I definetly don’t want to start a fight or stop you from learning about Nihonto it is just frustrating from time to time.

Well, I think we are ok now.

I can understand your side about all the others here who don't want accept anything than their opinion. I absolutely accept and believe your knowledge and for sure I don't want to argue with anyone. I just wanted to say that blade made a few years ago not today or these months, it isn't antique and of course I accept that it isn't a nihonto one. I justed wanted to discuss it a little bit without arguing or saying by my side "this is a real one".

 

Anyway, please believe me that I'm not a person who doesn't listening or not accepting the reality.

[Nihonto student]

Dear Salvatore,

 

I agree with DoTakuni regarding the fact that the blade was stored in poor conditions, then also the type of material used can speed up the process, about 40 years ago my father bought the classic 70$ replica of a wakizashi in stainless steel, without oil or maintenance of any kind it still doesn't have a single point of rust.

 

Giordy

[Salvatore]

2 hours ago, Nihonto student said:

Dear Salvatore,

 

I agree with DoTakuni regarding the fact that the blade was stored in poor conditions, then also the type of material used can speed up the process, about 40 years ago my father bought the classic 70$ replica of a wakizashi in stainless steel, without oil or maintenance of any kind it still doesn't have a single point of rust.

 

Giordy

I agree too, I never said all these information are wrong. I just said that I accept that it is a fake blade but a little bit older.

Also yes, I can understand that depends on metal.

 

Thank you for any information of everyone and I never wanted to say the opposite.