Nakago

[Jacques D.]

This nakago has been suriage, can you tell me what makes it possible to see it?

[Mark]

i will give it a try. Probably wrong but---- maybe i will learn something

 

it is hard to be positive from the picture, it would be better to see it in hand... but if i saw this picture i would say the sword is either ubu or machi-okuri just a few cm.  It appears to me that the temper line ends just past the machi and that it turns down to the edge.  If the temper actually turns down to the edge then it is either suriage and then retempered  or it is ubu or the machi has been moved just a little (some makers end temper at machi and some just past). If it were suriage i would expect the temper line to fade out past the machi where it was heated when shortened.....  

[Brian]

The ana is unusually low, you would expect it to be a few inches higher.
The one side of the blade had been narrowed in thinness, based on the look of the hi. This is done when the nakago is shortened, and usually only on one side. I would say that it is machi okuri by a few inches, but as Mark said, the ending of the hamon says otherwise, which would only happen if the machi area was detempered/annealed.
It's not an obvious one, and the factors have to be balanced against each other.

[O koumori]

To my old eyes, it looks like the chiri on the bo-hi hi narrows down and disappears at the bottom of the nakago.

Also, can't be sure, but perhaps the soe-hi narrows down faster than the bo-hi.

 

Dan K

[Franco D]

 

Quote

 Brian says - which would only happen if the machi area was detempered/annealed.

 

What else?

 

Suriage or o-suriage?

[DoTanuki yokai]

Cut of Nakagojiri.

Hamon runs into the Tang.

Hi gets flatter on one side and the mekugiana punch in the Hi that was filed flat afterwards. 

[Jacques D.]

The chiri disappearing towards the nakago jiri shows that the sword has been shortened. The hamon is not visible, so we can't say anything about it.  For the nakago-jiri, certain schools have used it (Hosho, Ichimonji) but in this case, considering the other factors, it's a plus.
Brian, the mekugi-ana is well placed for a tachi tsuka.

[Brian]

22 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Brian, the mekugi-ana is well placed for a tachi tsuka.

Yeah, but signed katana mei. Which of course isn't an original mei.

[Alex A]

20 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

 

Hamon runs into the Tang.

 

 

Well, i used to think that too, but depends.

 

The wonderful world of where the hamon ends - Nihonto - Nihonto Message Board (militaria.co.za)

 

[Alex A]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

The chiri disappearing towards the nakago jiri shows that the sword has been shortened. The hamon is not visible, so we can't say anything about it.  For the nakago-jiri, certain schools have used it (Hosho, Ichimonji) but in this case, considering the other factors, it's a plus.
Brian, the mekugi-ana is well placed for a tachi tsuka.

 

Aye, i would have said the horimono would not taper off so much down the nakago on an Ubu sword.

 

Used to own such a sword with Bo-hi running the full length of the nakago, used to think of it as quite rare as didn't seem to see so many about.

[Matsunoki]

Maybe it’s my eyes but the chiri only appears to taper off on one side of the nakago. On the other side it appears to run evenly to the nakago jiri. Could,the “missing chiri” simply have rusted away?..or been damaged in some other way?

If the nakago mune had been reworked during suriage wouldn’t the chiri  taper off the same on both sides?

[Jacques D.]

Colin,

 

Ok, you don't understand anything, I suggest you read this:

 

http://www.militaria...articles/Suriage.pdf

 

Brian

Aoe Swordsmiths signed katana mei and their sword were worn with a tachi koshirae

 

I ignore alex he's only there to spoil the subject

 

[Matsunoki]

23 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Ok, you don't understand anything, I suggest you read this:

Why not just tell me? Am I wrong in what I see? 

[Franco D]

28 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Colin,

 

Ok, you don't understand anything,

 

Uncalled for, disagree without insulting.  And, actually Colin's questions are valid.

 

 

[Franco D]

In order to analyze a sword, this sword, correctly, you must first determine the original shape of the sword. The difficulty is that unless and without having seen, experienced, and compared this sword with similar swords it becomes and can be difficult to figure out. If you don't get it right there's a good chance of ending up chasing your own tail around. 

[Matsunoki]

I was polite and said what I could see. I expected Jacques to come back with an insult instead of an explanation and I was not disappointed. 
 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Maybe it’s my eyes but the chiri only appears to taper off on one side of the nakago. On the other side it appears to run evenly to the nakago jiri

Where do you see an insult ? I'm simply quoting a fact based on your own words. 

[lonely panet]

To his defence its a tricky suriage if your not experienced. 

 

Neither side appears to been ground down and both Hi are symmetrical.

 

Its just the nakago mune that is the show.

 

And honestly i wouldnt be surprised if it was a sumitoshi

[Alex A]

11 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

 

I ignore alex he's only there to spoil the subject

 

 

 

If that's how you feel then i wont comment on any more of your content and no longer quote you

 

You be a gent and do the same with me, then we will get on fine.

[Andi B.]

Checking the original scaled picture I would say it's suriage only on one side...

 

Joke aside: No first idea but I aligned pictures of both sides for better comparison.

[Matsunoki]

12 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Ok, you don't understand anything,

 

9 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Quote

 

Where do you see an insult ?

Jacques, let’s not deflect off topic by debating the inaccurate and uncalled for comments above.

instead let’s stay on topic, after all I assume you started it to educate us?

 

You said “This nakago has been suriage” and that the reason is “The chiri disappearing towards the nakago jiri shows that the sword has been shortened”

 

I am trying to reconcile that with what I can see. The chiri on the mune side only tapers/disappears on one side of the nakago. If your are suggesting that the nakago has been reworked on that side (the side with the Mei) and has had the kasane reduced in that way then surely if you file down onto any hi the hi actually get narrower and the chiri get wider …..just like when blades with hi or other horimono are polished.

 

So please enlighten us.

[Jacques D.]

 

Once again read this article very attentively,

 

http://www.militaria...articles/Suriage.pdf

[Matsunoki]

22 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Once again read this article very attentively,

Thank you, I have.

Let me ask you a couple of direct questions in the hope of getting an actual answer rather than a “go away and read this”. I’m simply asking you to explain your assertion in relation to this actual nakago. If you are not happy to do that why bother to create the topic?

1. you are inferring the nakago kasane has been reduced yes?…or no?

2. Which side of the nakago are you inferring has been reduced? (Or is it both?)

3. Please highlight the actual physical evidence on this nakago bearing in mind the likely effect on both chiri and hi width and depth

 

……then we will all learn.

Thank you.

[Andi B.]

(deleted by me)

 

[Jacques D.]

Colin, why are you trying to trick me? Either you understand the suriage process or you don't. if you do, you don't need to ask these questions.

[Matsunoki]

Trick you? How on earth am I trying to trick you? I asked some simple questions.

 

I’m merely  asking you to explain your assertion for the benefit of all of us because I and others on here don’t quite see it the same way. I’m not saying the blade isn’t suriage but I can’t quite see how the evidence you offer supports it.

 

Filing on an area with Hi will cause unavoidable predictable geometric distortions to both the Hi and the Chiri - yes?

 

The Hi will get narrower yet if anything they appear to get wider -yes?

The Chiri will get wider yet they appear to get narrower and develop mysterious gaps- yes?
The Chiri between the Hi has obvious corrosion gaps in that area -yes?

The Chiri between the Hi appears intact at the jiri end -yes?

Although the images are not ideal, the area in question does appear to be more heavily corroded and thus the explanation could simply be that the Hi nearest the mune has eroded away?

 

If what I say above is factually inaccurate please correct me. You are a scientist and will doubtless welcome views and opinions being challenged.

 

…. and yes I understand the various suriage options (there isn’t just one option…it depends on many factors) so please don’t ask me to read the article again.

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

It depends on the shape how much it will get narrower but it will.

Actually the Hi is nearly flat at the end of the Nakago on the left picture.

The Hamon runs into the Tang, the disappearance of the Hamon in the Nakago is not the end of it but it gets lower like the pattern 

that can be seen on the rest of the blade.

[Jacques D.]

Christian

 

You can't see the hamon, at most you can see the hadori. A hamon can only be seen in good lighting. the one below is fortunately in sashikomi polish

 

[Mark S.]

11 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

 

 

 

You… will doubtless welcome views and opinions being challenged.

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Hardned steel is more resistant to corrosion, one could say that the Habaki removed the rust but i think what i see fits better in the picture.

 

EDIT: I wrote Hamon and Jacques you are right that i dont really see the Hamon.