Suishinshi Masahide made in 1806 WW2 samurai sword info

[Brian]

This is indeed a bad horimono....very bad. Best hope is it's atobori. But I wouldn't bet on it. Wartime sword with wartime horimono. A legit wartime historical piece. But really doubt any real Masahide out there bears such a carving. Open it full size.

[The Blacksmith]

The most beautiful blade that I have ever owned was gimei, a supposed Tsuda Echizen no Kami Sukehiro. It obviously wasn't a Sukehiro, but I couldn't have liked the blade any more if it had been shoshin ! It was still an extremely high quality blade, ex Bowden collection.

Hopefully, Matt will realise that the collective opinions represented  here are the result of a love of these weapons over many years, and accumulated knowledge of them, and are not merely an attempt to discredit his blade. It would be wonderful if the blade, when shown in-hand to an expert, proved to be genuine, but the facts, based on the little that we have seen so far, seem to indicate otherwise.

All the opinions were well meant!

[The Blacksmith]

21 minutes ago, Brian said:

This is indeed a bad horimono....very bad. Best hope is it's atobori. But I wouldn't bet on it. Wartime sword with wartime horimono. A legit wartime historical piece. But really doubt any real Masahide out there bears such a carving. Open it full size.

 Possibly added to hide fukure perhaps?

[Brian]

Bit of a quandary. OP has asked for the thread and pics to be deleted. Now the conditions of joining are that posted content can be used here for educational purposes and we have the rights to leave it up. I have been reluctant to remove posts where they become educational, especially for others later trying to research a smith. I don't want to be a dick and refuse to remove it, but on the other hand, it is of help from an educational point of view and for others who may research the smith or this issue later.
Am I being unreasonable in deciding to leave it up for reference and to learn from?
I understand when people are selling a sword and don't want future buyers to find any negative comments about it, but even then, it is a risk you take when you publish stuff on the internet. This isn't an "instant gratification/answers" forum where you get your info and then delete everything. That's Facebook.
So just looking for opinions. I'm inclined to leave it up. Maybe it comes back shoshin, and I am sure we would all like finality to this one oneday.

[PNSSHOGUN]

No, it's your forum and the thread is a valuable learning lesson - about Masahide and the Dunning-Kruger effect.....

[Alex A]

No, part of the forum rules.

 

I wanted a sales advert removed on another forum after it sold. Got a straight NO, i should have read the rules closer. 

 

Sometimes folks want stuff like this removing to hide details. Say if someone wanted to sell as Shoshin in the future to some unsuspecting novice. Of which we know there are many.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Am I being unreasonable in deciding to leave it up for reference and to learn from?

No you are not being unreasonable. 

[ROKUJURO]

It is good to leave it here. It may prove to be educational for novices, and it can be helpful for seasoned members to learn that some new sword lovers just don't react in a rational way about their new "treasures". 

[Bazza]

Leave it up.

 

BaZZa, who has been doing the Aussie hard road for 60 years and has seen it all and been there and done that...  Thin skin doesn't cut it in the Nihontou world...

[SteveM]

I don't think you're being a dick. It's a post from someone who wanted info, and he got a ton of info. 

 

He didn't reveal any personal information, there isn't anything libelous, there isn't even anything really embarrassing or cringe-inducing. The only reason he might want it deleted is that it now pops up on an internet search for Suishinshi Masahide, and its somehow inconvenient. 

 

I suppose I feel slightly vested in the thread because I took time out to search for a sword with this exact date, just as others used their time to search and link and comment. So the poster came here and said he just wanted to learn about the sword, and in return he got a bunch of volunteers to help him learn about his sword. So far, so good.

 

Now he wants to disappear and delete the whole thread, along with the efforts of the guys who helped him out. 

 

Well, lock the thread and let it sink to the bottom of search results if you like. But he shouldn't get to decide to "disappear" everyone's efforts.

 

 

[raynor]

Leave the thread up, it is good education for novices and for anyone that humility is better then hubris - by asking his account deleted the op has closed himself off from further learning, a missed opportunity in any field.

 

Last I checked starting a thread did not automatically give any rights of ownership, been like that since dawn of the internet.

[cluckdaddy76]

I am a very new collector, and I would like to see it stay up. I think it is educational on a few levels...

[Jacques D.]

Perhaps you should explain why this sword is gimei (yes, it is); after all, the horimono may have been made by an amateur who didn't know who Masahide was (this is highly unlikely, of course, but, in absolute, it cannot be ruled out).

[The Blacksmith]

The thread should stay I think. 

 

Hopefully, should any other people new to collecting and studying nihonto read this, they will realise that the observations and opinions are well meant and intended to be helpful and constructive, and are based on knowledge gathered over many years from various sources, and are not intended to be critical for the sake of it. This is educational, and thus I think it should stay.

[Brian]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Perhaps you should explain why this sword is gimei (yes, it is); after all, the horimono may have been made by an amateur who didn't know who Masahide was (this is highly unlikely, of course, but, in absolute, it cannot be ruled out).

Nothing can ever be ruled out. That's why we go with probability until proven otherwise.
Now...let's hear your analysis, without personal attacks. You do have an ability to point out things often missed, so how about you make this educational and give us your analysis without  anything personal attached? Might be interesting and valuable if you can keep it civil.

 

[Toryu2020]

The first thing to note is the Yasuri-me - they are not clear cut kesho yasuri - Masahide always has a very clean clear finish to his nakago.

The SUI kanji is just wrong. The horizontal strokes all have a slight curvature - the shoshin shows strokes that are straight.

The spacing of the kanji is off - the KAO should almost be touching the HIDE kanji.

There is NO kokuin.

The closest thing to correct here are the characters for TSUKI and HI - maybe the faker had some relationship to Masahide? Kajihei perhaps?

The horimono is just wrong.

[Jacques D.]

Brian,

In Masahide's mei, as in that of other smiths, there are characteristics that are permanent throughout the career, and knowing them helps to determine whether or not the mei in question is authentic, which is where a good library is important.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

8 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

The first thing to note is the Yasuri-me - they are not clear cut kesho yasuri - Masahide always has a very clean clear finish to his nakago.

The SUI kanji is just wrong. The horizontal strokes all have a slight curvature - the shoshin shows strokes that are straight.

The spacing of the kanji is off - the KAO should almost be touching the HIDE kanji.

There is NO kokuin.

The closest thing to correct here are the characters for TSUKI and HI - maybe the faker had some relationship to Masahide? Kajihei perhaps?

The horimono is just wrong.

Hum

[Alex A]

FFS, when will folks learn that there are no rules in this game, chasing shadows.

 

Spoke to someone today that makes everyone here sound like an amateur, including you Jacky boy

 

Not everyone seeks attention or needs to be the "all seeing eye" in some online bull*****

 

Nothing can be ascertained by what's available in these terrible images from the OP

 

Some folks moan about judging swords from images yet still carry on

 

Some swords with good images can be judged, easy ones, as mentioned in other threads. Some cant, simple as that.

 

Cant even see the blade here!!!!!!!!!!!!.Talk about putting the cart before the horse!. What happened to judging the blade and then the mei?.  

 

What happened to that new rule about measurements and photos?, ,peeing in the wind

 

If folks have something to say then stop talking in RIDDLES. like the RIDDLER, it just shows you know nothing and are pulling examples from books, otherwise you would just state FACTS Thing is, its ongoing accumulating  history, what's proven FACTS? lol.

 

Line up EVERY sword, until then, shut up with the (brackets), seems folks think that if they have SEVERAL or even a DOZEN examples of a smiths mei then that makes them an EXPERT know it all, even thought the smith/lineage might have made say a THOUSAND PLUS sword.s Id be bloody EMBARASSED to come on this site with a page from a book showing a mei and proclaiming it gospel, sadly, history dictates unknowable's, we will never know about.

 

The exception to rule rule seems like all this hobby is about these days, like one big CONTRADICTION

 

Again, about as authentic as an airhostess smile, its UNKNOWN history a lot of the time yet some folks talk like everything is FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Its BS a lot of the time.

[Jacques D.]

There are two reasons to see that sword is gimei : The first is that the way it's engraved (as shown by the osnigata I've provided) doesn't correspond to the Bunka period. The second is essentially to be found in the Masa kanji, whose base is always engraved in an angular manner, whatever the period.

 

 

ps some are best ignored

[Alex A]

I surely don't want to have to comment again in this thread but feel i would be doing anyone new to the hobby a real INJUSTICE if i don't make this point. On that basis I'm just going to state it and bail out of this nonsense for a while.

 

ALWAYS assume gimei, especially when a lot of what we can see of this sword is an unpolished bar of steel.. Especially when there is a lack of detailed information such as dimensions and pictures of a certain standard. Cant judge blades in any way when the images look like they were taken in a dark broom cupboard with a camera phone from 2001.

 

DO NOT make the mistake of judging a blade by what little can be seen here and DO NOT let your own bias get in the way.

 

WITHOUT all the necessary information then i think its arrogant and ignorant to state whether a blade is factually gimei. That is up to someone that knows better with the blade in hand..

 

Folks here can have opinions and you know what, they could be right but that's not up to us as as we don't have all the relevant information at hand.

 

Basing an opinion just on the mei, well, that's FUNDEMENTALLY WRONG. There's a THOUSAND reasons a mei might be off. We here do not have the database of seeing many many examples in hand and documenting them. Studying what you do see and maybe coming up with matches that are far beyond what went into old books many years ago, Modern tech is way past that. Its ignorant to think any library we have now is worthy of making such decisions.

 

Bias can be a strong element in making decisions. Lets say i think the horimono is not up to the standard of the smith. If that's the case then i may posibly ignore the painfully obvious fact of the lack of information available. Again, we can look at the horimono and think it is not of the standard of the smith but should we base our decision on that fact?. As we don't have a time machine available then we do not know for sure who may have done the horimono. For all we know, it may have been an apprentice at the forge or even someone far later down the line, maybe even done during WW2. Who knows, we certainly don't

 

The point to this ramble. Its ok to have opinions, just don't claim them as FACT without having all relevant information. 

 

Not commented on this sword for that reason

 

Would be like watching experts on tv discussing a picture by Constable, only with a blanket thrown over it and just showing a signature and some of the painting. That's what i see happening here.

[Toryu2020]

Alex - you make good points and we have to hope someone gets to see it in hand at some point. However these pictures are not that bad and I believe using the same references that the shinsa teams use one can make an educated guess at the authenticty of a signature. Yes there are exceptions but the well known names are well recorded and comparisons are easily made. Yes the rule is blade first and then the mei but if all you have is the mei, people are still gonna have a go. Sorry if we made you angy...

-t

[Alex A]

Hi Thomas, not angry, just frustrated, with the hobby in general.

 

Actually taking a break from the hobby but will come back just to clarify a little.

 

I'm not pulling theories out of thin air by the way.

 

We all look at things differently, some of us may have seen stuff out of the norm with blades we own and swords we see for sale online. 

 

Ive seen, own, blades by WELL KNOWN smiths (with HOZEN) where the mei has a discrepancy, an obvious discrepancy. You look in the books, usual Fujishiro or whatever and noted discrepancy is NOT in there, no record of it. 

 

Over the years, that FACT as got me wondering about NBTHK data. If said blades where the mei has a discrepancy (yes, using that word again) have HOZEN, then that means the NBTHK MUST have ACCESS to much more data than any of us here. Either that or they have no choice to give hozen as the rest of the blade speaks for itself and the mei is as they might think, close enough. I cant imagine the NBTHK not compiling info in the hope of pushing this hobby further. Anyone here can look at online stores, look at mei from well known smiths. At times it can be quite surprising and enlightening. 

 

When folks here state stuff like "I believe using the same references that the shinsa teams" then to me its not entirely true. As stated above, its a mistake to think any library we own can compete with the data/knowledge of NBTHK, folks that do this for a living.

 

So when i see folks here debating a mei and coming to conclusions they think are FACT, without looking at the blade first, in  polish, then it starts to niggle a little. 

 

As said, nothing wrong with opinions if they if's and maybe, see someone that knows better etc.

 

Our opinions are formed by what we see and they are always changing as we see more, often contradicting what we think we know.

 

We here toy with the hobby, we just don't see enough or know enough. In that respect, we are way behind and its wrong to state opinions as FACTS

 

In me eyes a lot of it is still a mystery, the hobby is surrounded by BS and think we are still somewhat in the dark ages. For me, that's the issue with Japanese swords. It needs to advance, its too easy for us just to sit here and talk about stuff we think we know. Have been impressed with Jussi over recent years, its folks like him that are pushing this hobby further with compiling useful information and very kindly sharing it. I guess there is some light in that respect.

 

Anyways, just making a point and thats all i want to say again on this subject, goodbye for now.

 

Best

 

Perplexed Al

 

[John C]

54 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Ive seen, own, blades by WELL KNOWN smiths (with HOZEN) where the mei has a discrepancy, an obvious discrepancy. You look in the books, usual Fujishiro or whatever and noted discrepancy is NOT in there, no record of it. 

Interesting. Thought that was just mine. I have a papered Nobuyoshi where the exact wording of the mei is not listed in any reference, so I kind of questioned it. It also makes it difficult to determine generation, which is not indicated on this particular origami. But as you say, they must have a more comprehensive list of mei than what is available to the general public.

John C.

[Alex A]

Seriously John, never going to happen but if NBTHK made ALL info regarding ALL Hozen mei available to the general public. Regarding all the well known smiths,

 

I would assume it will blow anything we own out of the water and make those that think they have it sussed realise that they don't.

 

Would bet even eyebrows get raised down there as to what got passed in the past.

 

Though the ongoing nature of what they do puts them in charge and they get to see it in a perspective we will never likely see.

 

Made the point, don't want to keep coming on here and upsetting folks.

 

Will end on that, again lol.

 

Bye.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

I would be very surprised to find that the NBTHK had a database of all the swords they have seen - Perhaps all the swords they have papered, and even so I would not think they have them compiled by smith so that you can reference them (oshigata?). I have been to the research room at the old sword museum and it was full of books - the usual books we all have access to, there were not however file cabinets full of oshigata or ledgers from past shinsa - just the usual books.

 

Thats not to say they don't compile oshigata and make them available to the general public, however that is only at the Juyo level - Juyo To-ken Nado Zufu - an excellent reference if you are collecting at that level...

 

-t

[Rivkin]

Every forum I've been to unfortunately has the same pattern - me being almost the solo voice who has some idea what the items presented are and a dozen or so people who daily post that its impossible to understand anything unless its presented to "experts".

Such is life.

[Jacques D.]

7 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

I would be very surprised to find that the NBTHK had a database of all the swords they have seen - Perhaps all the swords they have papered, and even so I would not think they have them compiled by smith so that you can reference them (oshigata?). I have been to the research room at the old sword museum and it was full of books - the usual books we all have access to, there were not however file cabinets full of oshigata or ledgers from past shinsa - just the usual books.

 

Thats not to say they don't compile oshigata and make them available to the general public, however that is only at the Juyo level - Juyo To-ken Nado Zufu - an excellent reference if you are collecting at that level...

 

-t

I don't think you have any idea how much documentation the NBTHK has. I bought this book at the NBTHK museum 1200 pages, nothing but oshigatas and it's only an exemple

[Alex A]

15 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Every forum I've been to unfortunately has the same pattern - me being almost the solo voice who has some idea what the items presented are and a dozen or so people who daily post that its impossible to understand anything unless its presented to "experts".

Such is life.

 

Come back for one more point as this thread is interesting.

 

Well Kirill, i understand what your saying. 

 

Folks can work stuff out if they have some knowledge and know what they see and give an opinion, obviously. Unfortunately, an Alex Hozen or a Kirill Hozen etc don't cut it in the sales market.

 

There are more sought after opinions from wiser folks that give opinions with blade in hand and not images.

[Paz]

5 hours ago, Alex A said:

 

Come back for one more point as this thread is interesting.

 

Well Kirill, i understand what your saying. 

 

Folks can work stuff out if they have some knowledge and know what they see and give an opinion, obviously. Unfortunately, an Alex Hozen or a Kirill Hozen etc don't cut it in the sales market.

 

There are more sought after opinions from wiser folks that give opinions with blade in hand and not images.

 

Some of your posts have made them think quite a bit Alex. I recently did my own research on a blade, only because I was already given a lead on who the smith was. But then the smiths oshigata appeared in a well known book. The wakizashi was mumei, so it couldn't be gimei. And everything from type of hamon, to yasurime matched !. Luckily the hamon was unique to that particular school and one other. 

Oshigata books in Japanese which aren't translated which the NBTHK use, potentially have a huge impact If used in the west. But yes we can't issue papers. 

But aren't papers only important to people who don't plan to keep the sword forever?? Or is it a satisfaction of an authority saying "yes ,the sword is that ". 

 

Regards