Suishinshi Masahide made in 1806 WW2 samurai sword info

[Jacques D.]

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me being almost the solo voice who has some idea what the items presented are

The question is whether what you're saying is relevant; given your divinations, the answer is clearly negative.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am a fairly longtime member of NBTHK and I am supporting the organization as I believe they are doing many good things. However I have never sent anything to shinsa and for the forseeable future I wont at least in few upcoming years. This is bit astray from the original topic but as I feel the discussion is quite interesting.

 

While I do believe the system that Japanese shinsa provide, however I believe for all of the organizations it is business. And while various organizations of course work as well as they can, there are several factors that affect their full capability. Here it should be noted that I have never been even close to a shinsa session and do not really know how they work. For NBTHK time seems to be a limiting factor. As some may know NBTHK has now put a maximum number of 1,600 blades for Hozon / Tokubetsu Hozon tōken shinsa. I do think the submission numbers were higher than that recently so they had to put a limit in order to manage deadlines. I am not priviledged enough to know how they process the swords and evaluate them but when you process 1,600 swords within a limited time, you cannot actually spend huge amount of time per one blade. I remember few years ago I discussed this a bit with Darcy and perhaps we tried to crank some numbers. I am not mathematically that good but I know that big number of items with limited time equals little time per each item.

 

Here are some numbers for recent Jūyō shinsa that are of course previously already passed Tokubetsu Hozon, so items are already verified.

Session 69 - Application period 2.10. - 4.10. and 828 blades were sent in. Final judging for swords 1.11. and 56 blades passed.

Session 68 - Application period 3.10. - 5.10. and 817 blades were sent in. Final judging for swords 2.11. and 66 blades passed.

Session 67 - Application period 4.10. - 6.10. and 852 blades were sent in. Final judging for swords 29.10. and 111 blades passed.

 

I do believe NBTHK probably might have one of the largest reference collections. Plus I believe they do keep a record of all issued certificates but I believe they would classify them by number as that will make it easiest to search specific certificate numbers. As that is the most logical way to keep them. I would also believe that access to NBTHK certificate data is to staff only. However with the reference materials I can focus on the second issue time vs. reference materials.

 

As we all know there are some common references where we usually check the signatures. However in order to make a reference book effective you can only feature X number of items per specific smith. When working with time restraints there is a limit how much research you can do. When you have to go through hundreds of signatures within one month it gets bit limited compared to researching one specific signature for multiple months.

I take Bizen Nagamitsu (長光) here as an example.

Fujishiro - 8 reference mei

Sesko Meikan - 11 reference mei

In my personal references I have 207 different (verified by experts) signed items by Nagamitsu

 

The reference books will create a good general base for signatures but there are possibilities not featured in common references. Of course in general you don't have to dig up all the possible reference signatures of the smith but sometimes few in common references might not be enough.

 

And the final thought on my mind that must be considered is expert knowledge. I have never attended NBTHK meeting in Japan but the times in Europe I have been around senior NBTHK-EB members I have been astonished by their kantei skill and knowledge when quickly viewing items. The kantei sessions in both years at Utrecht were really nice to see how much details people pick up in extremely short viewing. I will always remember taking my own tachi to NBTHK Scandinavia meeting where a senior member told me fine details after a minute or so viewing the sword that I did not know about my own sword I had owned for quite a while... I think that my point is to encourage doing research and having fun doing it but at the same time there is a reason why NTHK or NBTHK shinsa team would have certain members, they are experts.

[Alex A]

Paz, 

 

There are differing opinions regarding papers. Some folks want them for every sword they own whilst others maybe when it comes to buying expensive swords. Others feel they don't need them at all. Depends on folks knowledge and how deep their pockets are. Some folks rely on papers because they have no interest in wanting to learn about swords, it can be daunting and time consuming so they see it as a shortcut to knowing a sword is authentic. Horses for courses.

 

Thanks Jussi, a surprising amount of data to take in there, wow, 207 examples of a Nagamitsu swords. 

 

Makes me wonder. As you mention, NBTHK is a business and i kind of would feel slightly disappointed if they were not making headway down there regarding compiling information/images onto a pc and learning something new from it. Maybe i expect too much though. They have the opportunity to look further with the numbers they see and record, though obviously that would have to be independent of Shinsa. schedule. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

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While I do believe the system that Japanese shinsa provide, however I believe for all of the organizations it is business.

 

NBTHK is a government agency. I doubt it has a commercial purpose until proven otherwise.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The NBTHK is listed as a public interest organisation that is certified by the government. Completely different from a government agency. These can operate as a for-profit organisation, usually with favourable tax benefits.

[Jacques D.]

8 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

The NBTHK is listed as a public interest organisation that is certified by the government.

 

Ok for that but no business in their purpose

 

Purpose of the NBTHK

Set in the past, the goals of the NBTHK are still valid today:

• Preservation and study of Japanese art swords
• To awaken understanding and spread knowledge concerning the Japanese art sword
• To identify, recognize and register the art swords according to their origin and qualification as important Japanese cultural assets and art objects
• Preparation of specialised studies on Japanese swordsmanship and its masters
• Works of art worthy of preservation also include the diverse objects of sword ornaments and sword mounts, such as koshirae, tsuba and the various associated parts of the kodogu

https://www.nbthk.net/main_english

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

NBTHK publishes the financial report yearly, so it is easy to see where the money comes in. It is featured every year in Tōken Bijutsu magazine. I won't post exact numbers here but I can list few things to give some insight.

 

Reiwa 5 - 2023 report

Jūyō shinsa makes little bit more money than full year of NBTHK Sword museum admissions.

Yearly Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa generate roughly 8x the money yearly NBTHK Sword museum admissions. (This seemed to be very good financial year for museum admissions vs. previous ones)

 

Reiwa 4 - 2022 report

Jūyō shinsa makes bit over 4x money vs. full year of NBTHK Sword museum admissions. (I believe this financial year had TJ shinsa too)

Yearly Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa generate roughly 15x the money yearly NBTHK Sword museum admissions.

 

Reiwa 3 - 2021 report

Jūyō shinsa makes c. 2,8x money vs. full year of NBTHK Sword museum admissions.

Yearly Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa generate roughly 15x the money yearly NBTHK Sword museum admissions.

 

I am not interested in economics or money stuff in general but it is easy to see that shinsa sessions are huge source of revenue for NBTHK. Those interested in financial stuff can pick up the May issues of the magazines as they have the full information with exact numbers. However the money brought in by shinsa sessions actually provide the means to NBTHK to carry out their purpose as listed above. You need enough money to cover the expenses of the organization (which are also listed in the report) in order to keep it running.

[Robert S]

This is a very useful thread on several issues.  Thanks for keeping it up!

 

Robert S

[Rivkin]

I admit to being old fashioned and more so, old and white, when it comes to my tastes. I don't care that much for who is nth generation polisher or who got promoted into some position. First reflects birth, second reflects loyalty. Even prizes have their limits - there are authors like Remarque or Tolstoy. And there are Pulitzer prize winners.

 

Expert should earn the title. By predicting things or offering valid, well known, published arguments.

In my book:

I strongly value Brian Czernega as a general kantei expert as well as that on certain materials and techniques.

Markus Sesko is the best when it comes to studies of old Japanese texts.

Dmitry Pechalov is very good when it comes to researching certain genealogies and a relationship between the swords and the collecting community.