Suishinshi Masahide made in 1806 WW2 samurai sword info

[Guest footslime69]

 

Hello,

 

I have an old Suishinshi Masahide samurai sword made in 1806 from WW2. I’m struggling to find info about him online so I was hoping someone here could help me please.  Thanks

[Ray Singer]

I'm surprised that you would struggle to find information, he was an extremely famous smith and there is quite a bit of material online and here within this group if you search. You said that your sword was made in 1806 and from World WWII. You are saying that it is in WWII gunto koshirae? 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q="suishinshi+Masahide"&oq="suishinshi+Masahide"+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCAgEEAAYFhgeMggIBRAAGBYYHjIICAYQABgWGB7SAQg2ODM3ajBqN6gCALACAA&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

[Ray Singer]

https://www.google.com/search?q="masahide"+site%3Anihontomessageboard.com&client=ms-android-google&sca_esv=a32461fe05b6239e&sxsrf=ACQVn08eUObbGq7TbLppAKmvG78NH7CD1Q%3A1710765556058&ei=9DX4ZeeXA_GAkvQPpaKviAI&oq="masahide"+site%3Anihontomessageboard.com&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIicibWFzYWhpZGUiIHNpdGU6bmlob250b21lc3NhZ2Vib2FyZC5jb21IgiZQhRJYkCFwAHgAkAEAmAGAAaABmgmqAQM3LjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCIBgGSBwCgB5wE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#ip=1

 

[Guest footslime69]

12 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

I'm surprised that you would struggle to find information, he was an extremely famous smith and there is quite a bit of material online and here within this group if you search. You said that your sword was made in 1806 and from World WWII. You are saying that it is in WWII gunto koshirae? 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q="suishinshi+Masahide"&oq="suishinshi+Masahide"+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCAgEEAAYFhgeMggIBRAAGBYYHjIICAYQABgWGB7SAQg2ODM3ajBqN6gCALACAA&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

 

 

Thanks for the reply. I need to resize the photos because they’re too large to upload on here (of the sword) .

im not sure what sword it is, I just know the date it was made and who it was made by because I’ve had the writing on the handle translated. 

[Guest footslime69]

[Guest footslime69]

I know I’m sounding like a boomer but trust me I’m not.. most sites I found through google either didn’t work or about other types of swords from different time periods. This one was made in 1806. Thanks so much for u help mate , I really appreciate it. Just want to learn more about this piece of history as I’m super interested in it. 

[Ray Singer]

Your translation is correct. 

 

Suishinshi masahide (KAO) 

 

Bunka san nen hachi gatsu hi (a day in the eighth month of 1806).

[Guest footslime69]

[Ray Singer]

You can try isopropyl alcohol to remove the accumulated material. Don't do anything otherwise to polish on your own or remove any stains in the blade. 

[Guest footslime69]

9 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

Your translation is correct. 

 

Suishinshi masahide (KAO) 

 

Bunka san nen hachi gatsu hi (a day in the eighth month of 1806).

Yes that’s correct. Are you able to tell me anything about this one? I’ve uploaded some photos for you. Cheers mate 

[Ray Singer]

From what I can see this is a traditional bukezukuri koshirae (mounting) which was adapted to be carried into World War II. I would suggest shinsa if you would like to validate the inscription.

[Guest footslime69]

9 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

You can try isopropyl alcohol to remove the accumulated material. Don't do anything otherwise to polish on your own or remove any stains in the blade. 

Yeah my Dad told me that stuff is grease from when it was first used, he hasn’t touched the blades at all. We still have it in its case 

[Guest footslime69]

10 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

From what I can see this is a traditional bukezukuri koshirae (mounting) which was adapted to be carried into World War II. I would suggest shinsa if you would like to validate the inscription.

My cousin is married to a Japanese lady and she was able to translate everything for us. Her ancestors were samurai. 

[Guest footslime69]

14 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

From what I can see this is a traditional bukezukuri koshirae (mounting) which was adapted to be carried into World War II. I would suggest shinsa if you would like to validate the inscription.

Do you know is these swords were considered to be good swords? And were they only used for WW2?  I read somewhere Masahide wasn’t known for his artistry but more for the functionality of the sword, is this true? 

[Brian]

Wipe off all the old oil, it is not doing the sword any favors, it wasn't made like that and it is obscuring all the work that needs to be seen, it doesn't add anything to the value. It's wartime grease.
Masahide is an important and valuable maker. This wasn't made for the war, but mounted for WW2 later if it's correct.
The problem is that Masahide's signature is extremely often faked, we call this gimei and it was done often from hundreds of years ago. So common in fact, that there are likely far more fake signatures than real ones, and they are very well done. You would need to clean off the oil, and submit it to a professional body to have it authenticated.
The carving (horimono) on the blade looks only of average quality, and this may lead to a later made wartime sword signed with a famous name. Clean the horimono with isopropyl alcohol and post good pics of it, so we can get an idea if it's the quality to be on a sword made by him. That motif was common on wartime swords too. But until we can see more of the blade etc, it's only educated guesses. The sword is a genuine Japanese sword, the question is whether it's a Masahide or a later sword signed with his name.

 

[Guest footslime69]

10 minutes ago, Brian said:

Wipe off all the old oil, it is not doing the sword any favors, it wasn't made like that and it is obscuring all the work that needs to be seen, it doesn't add anything to the value. It's wartime grease.
Masahide is an important and valuable maker. This wasn't made for the war, but mounted for WW2 later if it's correct.
The problem is that Masahide's signature is extremely often faked, we call this gimei and it was done often from hundreds of years ago. So common in fact, that there are likely far more fake signatures than real ones, and they are very well done. You would need to clean off the oil, and submit it to a professional body to have it authenticated.
The carving (horimono) on the blade looks only of average quality, and this may lead to a later made wartime sword signed with a famous name. Clean the horimono with isopropyl alcohol and post good pics of it, so we can get an idea if it's the quality to be on a sword made by him. That motif was common on wartime swords too. But until we can see more of the blade etc, it's only educated guesses. The sword is a genuine Japanese sword, the question is whether it's a Masahide or a later sword signed with his name.

 

Thanks for the info. The sword was originally taken from a high ranking Japanese soldier by my grandfather in WW2. Do you think it’s possible the Japanese soldiers had fake swords?   

[Guest footslime69]

17 minutes ago, Brian said:

Wipe off all the old oil, it is not doing the sword any favors, it wasn't made like that and it is obscuring all the work that needs to be seen, it doesn't add anything to the value. It's wartime grease.
Masahide is an important and valuable maker. This wasn't made for the war, but mounted for WW2 later if it's correct.
The problem is that Masahide's signature is extremely often faked, we call this gimei and it was done often from hundreds of years ago. So common in fact, that there are likely far more fake signatures than real ones, and they are very well done. You would need to clean off the oil, and submit it to a professional body to have it authenticated.
The carving (horimono) on the blade looks only of average quality, and this may lead to a later made wartime sword signed with a famous name. Clean the horimono with isopropyl alcohol and post good pics of it, so we can get an idea if it's the quality to be on a sword made by him. That motif was common on wartime swords too. But until we can see more of the blade etc, it's only educated guesses. The sword is a genuine Japanese sword, the question is whether it's a Masahide or a later sword signed with his name.

 

 

[The Blacksmith]

it is not a fake sword, just the signature was often faked to get a better price from unsuspection buyers. As has been said Masahide was a rather famous and important smith, so his signature was often faked, and this is called gimei. It may still be an extremely nice blade!

[DoTanuki yokai]

When Masahide made functional swords that is the highest art after form follows function. 
Just in case it wasnt mentioned don’t clean the Nakago (tang) of the blade. 

[Brian]

Fake signatures exist in the hundreds of thousands. The swords are genuine swords, just not made by the person on the tang. It's something you get used to when you study Nihonto.
Not saying it is or isn't, but it was common and not seen as a "fake" sword, it was a tradition that was often accepted.
Swords with big names and no papers are best considered gimei (false signature) until proven otherwise.
Would not be in the least bit unusual for a Japanese officer to carry a nice sword with a false signature. But let's see more of it and we all hold thumbs it's ok.

[Guest footslime69]

17 minutes ago, The Blacksmith said:

it is not a fake sword, just the signature was often faked to get a better price from unsuspection buyers. As has been said Masahide was a rather famous and important smith, so his signature was often faked, and this is called gimei. It may still be an extremely nice blade!

My father took high quality images with a police forensic of the sword years ago and took them to Japan. I’m not sure who specifically he went there to show but they said it was real and begged Dad to sell it to them. I’ll try and find out who it was.

[Brian]

This is the sort of quality you'd want to be seeing on a high end sword by a good smith. Compare the details closely, especially the scales and undercutting.
Not quite sure we are there. But again, just throwing thoughts out. Sword is still a nice piece either way.

 

 

[Guest footslime69]

15 minutes ago, Brian said:

This is the sort of quality you'd want to be seeing on a high end sword by a good smith. Compare the details closely, especially the scales and undercutting.
Not quite sure we are there. But again, just throwing thoughts out. Sword is still a nice piece either way.

 

 

Would you have any photos of his authentic work from the 1800’s by any chance?

 
My cousin told me he was signing his work with a different signature in 1805 by adding a made up letter to the end. He would oftenly do this apparently. 

[oli]

You can read the book shinshinto-shi from Markus Sesko, there is a lot information about the smith Masahide, and the smiths he influenced. 

 

Regards

Oliver

[Guest footslime69]

[Ray Singer]

22 minutes ago, footslime69 said:

Would you have any photos of his authentic work from the 1800’s by any chance?

 

 

As mentioned earlier, there is a lot of information online. If you search and find one with an associated paper then it is likely an authentic example you can study for reference.

https://www.google.com/search?q="suishinshi+Masahide"+site%3Aaoijapan.net&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS954US954&oq="suishinshi+Masahide"+site%3Aaoijapan.net&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY4MDNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Ray Singer]

https://www.google.com/search?q="水心子正秀"+"日本刀"&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj11dG1jv6EAxVxkLAFHY_mDagQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq="水心子正秀"+"日本刀"&gs_lp=EgNpbWciHSLmsLTlv4PlrZDmraPnp4AiICLml6XmnKzliIAiSO8lUPQBWMojcAB4AJABAJgBc6ABmAOqAQM1LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGKAgtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ICBhAAGAcYHsICBBAAGB6IBgE&sclient=img&ei=y1v4ZbXEOPGgwt0Pj823wAo&bih=798&biw=1222&prmd=ivsnmbtz&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS954US954

[Paz]

As Oliver mentioned seskos book Nihon shinshinto shi has great much info. Generally masahide is seen as the originator of the shinshinto era of sword making. His famous students such as chousai tsunatoshi and tsunahide worked with hamons such as toranba. 

 

Masahide believed that shinto period swords were inferior to koto (old) swords, and tried to imitate swords from koto periods. (Am I right )

 

I think he even tested a bunch of swords and recorded the ones that broke. 

 

But yes he's a big name. 

 

Regards

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

http://www.nihontocr...hinshi_Masahide.html
 

But I wouldn’t say all the conclusions at the end are correct 

[Rivkin]

Don't know about the signature but horimono looks too crude. One can try using one of NTHK shinsa in the US or have someone submit it to NBTHK in Japan.