What does artificial patina look like?

[Blueduck600]

I was wondering if you folks could post some examples of what you would consider good natural patina and bad artificial patina. I've seen little bottles of artificial patina coming from Japan. I don't know what that looks like when it's used

-edit-It seems a better way to say that may be: original and aged patina vs poorly restored/patina in a bottle.-
I'm considering this piece and it looks nice to me but It also looks not quite right? How faint the signature is makes me wonder. I love the shape and proportions.
There's a couple listings on this one. The cheapest i've seen is $133.

 Any advice on this piece is certainly welcome.

[ROKUJURO]

What problems do you see and where? Usually, a TSUBA will look different in hand, compared with a photo.

The guard looks like a basic GO ISHI GATA TSUBA, even signed. A faint MEI is nothing to worry about, it's a question of individual chiselling style and age.  Nothing wrong with it in my eyes (but they are no longer very good).

[Blueduck600]

The only issue I see in this one is how clean the patina looks compared to how worn the signature seems.

It reminds me of things that get cleaned with a wire wheel and then repainted.

I'm just trying to get a clearer understanding of how to judge condition for tsuba. 

[ROKUJURO]

Adam,

a lot depends how the TSUBA was stored. In a dry place and no temperature change, it will remain intact for hundreds of years. The initial/original patination is a protective layer and can preserve the TSUBA perfectly well.

[Steves87]

From those photos, that doesn't appear to be a faked patina. It may not be the original patina (tagane patina is very consistent), but who knows? In my experience with fake patina, the guards will have more of a black, or quite dark finish with a somewhat "dry" appearance. The biggest tell however, is by submerging the guard in static hot water, if the finish starts to leach, it is a fake patina.

There are a few high volume sellers who's guards consistently leech when submerged, and at this stage I have about an 80% strike rate of calling a guard out, as having a fake patina (once in hand), but this doesn't always translate with photographs.

[Spartancrest]

I think once you have that guard in hand you will be very happy with the patina, photos can sometimes give a deceptive pale look - add my vote for original patina, well cared for and very old.

 

If you want to compare artificial patina you can check out this auction site https://www.jauce.com/user/dj2hmyuc  this guy's stock is made yesterday and has that oily black finish you will get using that "colour-enhancing rust preventive agent" found here. https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1126749580   Both the modern backyard tsuba and the artificial patina can be found on ebay as well.

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/386829157016  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/386845822320      https://www.ebay.com/itm/254728433191  I would not recommend any of this stuff used on antique tsuba.

 

By the way that same guard you are looking at for $133 USD is also selling over on Jauce   https://www.jauce.com/auction/c1128842948 or Buyee  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/c1128842948   at a starting price of $6.71 USD  - it pays to shop around!  Signed "Tetsujin" 

 

For comparison of the mei you might find something here?  https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12900-tsuba-mei/

 

[Blueduck600]

17 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

If you want to compare artificial patina you can check out this auction site https://www.jauce.com/user/dj2hmyuc  this guy's stock is made yesterday and has that oily black finish you will get using that "colour-enhancing rust preventive agent" found

 

Thank you Spartancrest that's exactly the kind of thing i'm looking for. Thanks for the help.
I had looked for that tsuba on Jauce a week or so ago and I didn't see it. Odd that it's an auction and not buy it now.
I've been thinking about making a purchase there but I'm not at all clear on what it'll actually end up costing me to ship it back to Ohio.
That skull tsuba was actually one I was looking at and was warned away by someone based on the color of it. Other than that I really couldn't get any input on it

[Bugyotsuji]

The iron of Adam's tsuba above looks ok in that shot to me too.

If a Mei has been under a slightly moving/rubbing seppa for many long years, it would certainly lose some of its sharpness like that.

[ROKUJURO]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

.....If a Mei has been under a slightly moving/rubbing seppa for many long years, it would certainly lose some of its sharpness like that.

Piers,

I am not so sure about that, unless there was water, dirt, or corrosion trapped under the SEPPA, and these could indeed move a lot. Usually, SEPPA made of copper or brass should be softer than iron. 

In case this 'metal removing by friction' was frequently observed, we would see faint signatures on older TSUBA on a regular basis. What do you think?

[rkg]

Another pervasive surface hack used on iron pieces like yours is the dreaded "brown wax".  A lot of material coming out of Japan these days suffers from this and sometimes the wax is laid on like putty to hide a multitude of sins. you can use some high test isopropyl alcohol on a q-tip somewhere inconspicuous, and if it comes off brown...

 

Clear wax over a good surface with no active rust is a personal choice (and it does make a lot of pieces look better), but the hackers often use the brown stuff to hide active rust issues, deep pitting, areas of corrosion (that look like sandpaper), cracks, even out botched repatination, etc.  This is bad because the corrosion continues under the surface - wax is permeable and the rust can still get what it needs to continue reacting.  The sad part is that sometimes they'll use the brown wax even when there's nothing to hide - just as part of their rework process - I guess they think it makes the piece look better

 

And.. you often can't just clean it off because it opens a whole can of worms to try and conserve the result.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Bugyotsuji]

Richard, many thanks for this 'brown wax' usage. I will ask around and keep an eye out for it from now on.

 

As to Jean's question above, this is hard to quantify. Once someone told me that people today often try to stiffen up the tsuka and linkages to make the whole package feel 'solid' in the hands, but that back in the day the seppa and tsuba were deliberately kept somewhat loose in order to absorb some of the blow to your forearms when striking an object with your blade. Now if as you say, elements of dust, sand, dirt, water, corrosion were to find their way into the interstitial spaces, then that could/might contribute to the gentle seppa-shaped indentations often found on iron tsuba, and correspondingly to many of the fainter Mei that we see. (?) Just throwing out ideas here...

[ROKUJURO]

Piers,

this might be the wrong place to discuss it, so a moderator might want to move it to a better section.

But anyhow: I am surprized to read about an intentional 'loose' fit of the TSUKA. That would contradict all my technical understanding of this subject. 

As far as I know, a blade's NAKAGO has to have a perfect and secure, three-dimensional fit in the TSUKA for safety reasons. It is - at least in my understanding - not the MEKUGU that secures the blade, but the tight fit. The MEKUGI only ensures this, but there should be no physical load on it. With a good TSUKA, you can hold a sword upside-down without MEKUGI! I have always been warned to swing a sword the TSUKA of which is old, shrunk and possibly splitted.

I have also learned that in the SAMURAI era, TSUKA were often replaced, as the life of the warrior depended on the functionality of his sword. 

Is that outdated knowledge?

[Bugyotsuji]

Actually I didn't say a loose fit of the tsuka itself. I meant people generally like tight onto the fixed tsuka.

Then I said "the seppa and tsuba were deliberately kept somewhat loose"... which is what I heard. The tsuka can and should be a solid fit, of course, but the informer was talking about the width of the tsuba and seppa assembly, and how energy was somehow lost/relieved through their looseness.

 

OK, I should not just pass on stuff without questioning it further! Thank you.

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Piers, I misinterpreted your post.