Please help me identify this sword

[steve3322]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post to the forum and my first experience with Japanese swords. My father passed away a few months ago and my brother and I have begun the process of handling his estate. His interests focused mostly on revolvers and old west artifacts (cowboys).  There are various items that did not fit his collection but obviously caught his eye. This sword is one of those items. My uncle believes it to be Japanese. I know very little of these weapons so please forgive me if a use the wrong terminology-that's why I'm here- to gain the correct descriptions.

I have some knowledge of U.S. military swords. Actual fighting swords are heavier and more substantially made. Presentation swords and ceremonial swords are lighter and more ornate. This sword, if indeed Japanese, seems (to me) to fit the latter category. The blade is 26" long and the scabbard appears to be missing it's covering.

I've tried to find internet images of similar designs and haven't had much success. Estimates (guesses) run from standard naval officer's sword to political officer of an occupied territory (pre WWII). Any help in properly identifying this sword is greatly appreciated. I have not found any markings on the sword or scabbard. I have the sword in hand so I can answer any questions or post more pictures if needed.

Thanks, Steve

[Bruce Pennington]

Jim Dawson's book, page 338, starts a section on Colonial Empire Swords.  These were carried by civil, Gunzoku, and miliitary official who governed the areas.  There were Taiwan, Chosen (Korea), Nan yo (South Sea Islands), Tsingtao, Kanto, and Karafuto.  Each had it's own emblem that would be seen on the side 'ear' of the backstrap.  However, on page 355, he shows one carried by a Gunzoku that had a cherry blossom instead.  I think your sword is one of those.

 

[steve3322]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for your reply. When trying to identify the sword, I've been unable to find an image with the vines/foilage attached to the cherry blossom. Also, the sword blade  is more pointed (uniform, not up swept) than others. What are your thoughts about these two factors?

Steve

Here are close up's of the cherry blossom emblem.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I see, yes it's cherry.  I'm away from my books for a while today.  Maybe one of the guys that specialize in these can help.  To me it looks like something from the early years.  It's navy, but the saya pattern looks like colonial to me.  I'll get the book back out later, if you don't get help beforehand.

 

@lonely panet

[steve3322]

Here are some pictures of the scabbard showing the wood on both sides. I've read that it could have been wrapped in shark or ray skin.

[Conway S]

Looks like the Hannin level official's saya with the boar's eye cutouts on the brass fittings. Black leather was also common on colonial sword saya. This sword has a European style blade as opposed to the Japanese style chrome plated blade with habaki and acid-etched temper line common to colonial swords. I have not seen this particular backstop before. As Bruce pointed out it could be a colonial sword without distinction to a particular location. 

 

Conway

[Tensho]

Saya looks grooved, which would indicate a stitched leather covering.

[steve3322]

20 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 To me it looks like something from the early years.  It's navy, but the saya pattern looks like colonial to me. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Conway S said:

Looks like the Hannin level official's saya with the boar's eye cutouts on the brass fittings. Black leather was also common on colonial sword saya. This sword has a European style blade as opposed to the Japanese style chrome plated blade with habaki and acid-etched temper line common to colonial swords. I have not seen this particular backstop before. As Bruce pointed out it could be a colonial sword without distinction to a particular location. 

 

Conway

 

Being as I'm completely new to these type swords, can I get some clarification on the comments posted.

What is a Hannin level official?

Sword looks navy but saya (scabbard) looks colonial?

Sword has European style?

Early years? 1895-1945?

 

Any idea as to the value of the sword in it's current condition? I have to value it for estate purposes. Also, would it be worth having the saya re-covered and by whom?

 

Don't give up on me. I'm just a newbie at these. Ask me about Winchesters, Colts or Marlins and I'm much more knowledgeable.

 

Thanks for the continued help,

Steve

[Geraint]

Dear Steve.

 

Confusing, isn't it?  Hannin is one of three levels of official in the colonial administration that Japan set up in territories that it acquired in the early 20th century.  In common with many such colonial powers these were quasi military in that they had swords assigned to them.  Hanin is a junior rank, Sonin is Emperor approved and Chokunin is an Imperial appointment, so the suggestion is that yours is the lowest of these ranks.

 

The pattern is very similar to the Navy dress sabre of around the same time, hence the comment, but Navy swords have different scabbard mounts, yours does look like  a colonial type.

 

European style is because post Meiji restoration Japan modelled its armed forces on what were seen to be successful European militaries and this included uniform and sword styles.  

 

Early years is because these European styles were essentially in use up to the 1930s when more traditionally Japanese style swords were introduced.

 

Hope that helps.  Yours does not have any of the usual decorations on the ears of the hilt strap.

 

All the best.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

Lot's to learn when jumping into a new collector's realm!

 

I don't know the full story of how Japan administered occupied lands.  All I know is from the swords I see in reference books.  But clearly there were Army and Navy administrators.  Army swords had a different saya (scabbard).  Here's a partial shot of an Army one:

The style of your sword saya is Navy.  And surprise! While looking at Ohmura's site FOUND HERE>, I see his example has the same blade design as yours!  He calls it the "Kogarasu-maru structure"

 

WWII leather tends to get degraded over time.  It's possible the leather on yours got damaged and someone removed it along the way.  Are the metal fittings loose?  Does that second belt hanger loop slide?  It looks like it's been slid too far up, close to the top.

 

Back to administrators.  The Japanese had a civil branch working alongside the military, both Army and Navy, called Gunzoku.  They wore military-styled uniforms, but had their own rank structure.

There were 4 ranks of civilian grades in the army.

1. Younin (傭人) were hired laborers. For instance, barbers and laundry workers were such civilians.

2. Ko-in (雇員) hired admin helpers for the office (treated as equivalent of a Lance Corporal) .

3. Hanin-kan (判任官), who were civilian equivalents of NCOs, carrying out legal, accounting, machine maintenance and other duties.

4. Koutou-kan (高等官), who comprised the officer class equivalents from lieutenant to general. Such people included teachers of non-military subjects in military schools, interpreters, legal specialists, etc.
{From Nick Komiya's post HERE.

 

Both the Hanin-kan and Koutou-kan carried swords of the branch, Army or Navy, they worked for.  Yours was obviously working for the Navy, and by "colonial" I mean he was working in one of the occupied territories.  Japan specialized the fittings and markings on swords.  There were specific styles for standard Army & Navy; styles for Police, Railways, etc.  There were specific styles and/or emblems for diplomats and administrators of occupied territories.

 

Edit: Oops, I see Geraint has just beat me!

[Geraint]

But different information Bruce. 

[steve3322]

Thank you both! That's very informative. As I stated above, I am a collector of U.S. militaria but this sword is "foreign" ground for me (pun intended).

 

To answer your questions, Bruce, the guard is slightly loose and has approximately 1/2" of side to side movement. You are correct about the second belt hanger loop. Someone has glued them in place. I moved the second one with my hand and the adhesive released. I suspect the others would also if I choose the re-cover the saya.

 

I plan to keep this sword so if either or both of you could help with my final question, I would greatly appreciate it.

I have to put a value on the sword "as is" for the estate, and, for my own purposes, I would like to know if it would be worth having the saya re-covered. As a collector, I tend to be a purist and I avoid restoration of antiques; but, in this case, the saya covering is completely gone. Value, I know, is primarily based on rarity and condition. This one has condition issues but I don't know how rare they are. Overall value?

 

Thanks again, Steve

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@matthewbrice might have a good idea on value.  I don't follow this style, and could only make a wild guess.  Others might know.

[Tensho]

Here's a follow up to what Bruce showed in Dawson's.

 

I was not able to find one with your cherry blossom and the vine design. There is probably a picture of one out there somewhere. 

 

I would imagine these were like Gunto in that the person purchasing could customized them to their preference?

[steve3322]

Matt Brice said the foilage indicated an earlier sword when more detail was used. That looks like my sword minus the ray skin and cherry blossoms. I'm not sure about gold plated brass unless it's worn off-mine has a solid brass color with a little green in the folding guard.

Are there any production numbers for this type sword?

[Conway S]

Steve, 

 

I would say $200 as a value for estate purposes. I feel you'd be hard pressed to sell this one at a higher price due to its condition. Complete colonial Hannin-level swords sell between $500-$1200 depending on the colonial administration, the quality of the sword's components and condition. The Sonin-level and Chokunin-level swords command higher prices. With these types of swords condition is king. 

 

Conway

[steve3322]

18 minutes ago, Conway S said:

Steve,

I would say $200 as a value for estate purposes. I feel you'd be hard pressed to sell this one at a higher price due to its condition.

Conway

That seems to be the consensus. It doesn't seem that re-wrapping the saya would be economically beneficial unless it's just something I decide to do for personal reasons. I'd love to know what my father paid for it. This was out of his wheelhouse as well. I was surprised to find it in his collection.

 

Thanks everyone for your input.