Potential 1st sword purchase.

[Mikemike88]

Hi

 

Hi

 

I’m a WW2 collector. I collect both Axis and Allied items and from all theatres of the conflict. In relation to Japanese items primarily I’ve been focused on Hinomaru Yosegaki flags and have acquired about 8 or so. For a while now I’ve intended to add a WW2 era Japanese officers sword to the collection. For me this would represent a sizeable investment as I’m not a big budget collector, which is why it’s taken some time for me to come across a realistic opportunity for acquiring a good condition sword. 
 

This sword currently belongs to an older collector who has been collecting for over 45 years. He primarily collected Allied and Japanese Far East items as that’s where his father served in the British Army. He is currently looking to downsize his collection. as such I am considering purchasing this sword along with a leather officers sword belt for around £1150. 
 

I appreciate that there are only a few photos but I initially took them as I wanted to get a translation of what was written in the wooden ‘tag’ rather than the finer points of the sword. I am visiting the collector again later this week so will get better photos then. I can say that the sword had been owned by one other collector before it came to him. It was sourced from the US. The blade is in good condition with no rusting, pitting etc. There is a clear hamon on the blade. I have no tang information at this point.

 

The wooden tag has been translated and reads as 
Front side:

Yamagata Prefecture, Higashi-Okitama county, Wada village, Moto-wada
To: Abe Shuichirō

Back side:
Sent by: Army Lieutenant
Abe Shuichiro

 

For now I’m just putting it out there for general comments, good or bad. as a complete newbie I’m just happy to learn. As I said I expect more photos will be wanted and I shall get them later in the week and update the post.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteveM]

Hi Michael,

The translation is accurate. As for the sword... as you guessed, we need to see it in order to make any comments that might be useful. From the pictures here, the fittings look to be in very good shape. Nicely preserved wrapping on the hilt/tsuka. The tassel also looks nice, but it could well be a later addition. I don't quite follow militaria much beyond translations, but tassels in good condition seem to be a much sought-after item. However the ones that collectors love are different from the one on your sword (I think, hopefully someone will help me out here). The scabbard is wrapped in leather, which is common, but we can't tell anything about the scabbard underneath the leather. With militaria, condition of the blade and of the fittings, is king. 

 

You'll obviously want to look for a signature on the tang. But just having a signature won't tell you too much unless you can read it, or post a picture of it here. The sword could be an old heirloom sword that was fitted with Imperial Japanese Army furnishings. This would be nice, but it changes the whole valuation/appreciation equation because it almost ceases to become "militaria" at that point, and instead becomes a sword antique that gets judged by a different set of criteria. The fittings become almost irrelevant, as most of the value will be in the blade itself. 

 

But just having a signature on the tang doesn't mean its an old sword. It could be a military sword that was made by an arsenal smith in the 1930s-1940s. These are kind of mass-produced blades that still had some element of human labor. The smith in charge of production will put his name on the tang. 

 

Anyway, if you can look at the tang and take some pictures, that will be helpful. If not, look for matching numbers on the metal parts if possible, as these are a good indicator that the sword isn't assembled from parts found on ebay. I note your comment about the provenance of the sword, but its always good to buy the blade and not the story. 

 

Anyway, too many variables to judge from the photos above, as 

[Mikemike88]

Steve 

 

Thanks for taking the time to comment. Totally accept all the points you make, in particular with regard to the tang markings. Absolutely, more pics required. I’ll keep an eye out for any numbers as advised.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[John C]

@SteveM

Steve:

With this much information, how much luck would a Japanese speaker have in possibly finding the relatives of Lt. Abe? (was the hint too subtle?)

 

John C.

[SteveM]

The chances would be pretty high, I think. Looking online, I can find 8 people named Abe living in what was that section of Wada city (now part of Takahata city). I wouldn't go cold-calling them, but if I wanted to repatriate that sword I might send a letter to one (or more) of them and ask if they were related to Shuichi.

 

The problem is that if this is a real guntō, you couldn't return it to them because it couldn't be registered, or even imported. If its an older blade, you could do it, but I don't think Mike has repatriation on his mind, and its dicey to try to contact these people out of the blue unless you wanted to return the sword. 

[Mark]

there are organizations that will assist with returning items.  I have some experience with that, Keep in mind if you want to made a donation and extend good will with a "gift" it can work out, of you are hoping the family will value it and pay more than market value then in my experience you will be disappointed

 

 

[The Blacksmith]

Michael,

 

              Simply judging by the photos that you have supplied, the sword appears to be a reasonably nice example of WWII officers sword. This should fit nicely into your existing collection of WWII militaria, that is if the blade is not totally ruined. Unfortunately, they have often suffered damage at the hands of unknowing folks to whom it is simply an old sword. Sad, but true.

Hopefully, you will be able to get pictures of the blade posted. As it is, if it is just as a representative example of a WWII Japanese officers sword for your militaria collection, you seem to have done quite nicely, the fittings look good and are in quite nice condition. And, who knows, maybe the blade is a good one, or even an ancient one!  I'd be happy with it as an example in my collection, if the blade is reasonable.

[Mikemike88]

12 hours ago, SteveM said:

The chances would be pretty high, I think. Looking online, I can find 8 people named Abe living in what was that section of Wada city (now part of Takahata city). I wouldn't go cold-calling them, but if I wanted to repatriate that sword I might send a letter to one (or more) of them and ask if they were related to Shuichi.

 

The problem is that if this is a real guntō, you couldn't return it to them because it couldn't be registered, or even imported. If its an older blade, you could do it, but I don't think Mike has repatriation on his mind, and its dicey to try to contact these people out of the blue unless you wanted to return the sword. 

Steve 

 

You are correct. There is no intention of repatriating. I have my own views on this but I won’t get into discussion here as it can run on a bit (from previous experience) but in this particular instance the seller would not sell me the sword if he thought that was my intent. His father fought in Burma and I’ll leave it there as I don’t think this is the forum to recount some of the first hand experiences his father had which left a life long impression. 
 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Mike,

Is the tassel all brown?  Sometimes these can be blue/brown or red/brown, but the color can be so faded that they appear all brown.

[Bruce Pennington]

Also, by the wording of the tag, this seems it was shipped by the officer to his home, not a surrender tag?  Anyone know?  

[Mikemike88]

Re the tassel it is actually brown and blue, it’s just not obvious from the photo. 
Re the format/wording of the tag, I had the same initial thought re it seemed more like a postal address and I queried it on the site I got the translation from. I was told that this was a format used for surrender tags so it’s still quite possibly a surrender tag.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah, good on both counts.  Thanks for the update!  It's a good looking sword, I like it!

[dkirkpatrick]

Guessing this is an older blade given the non-metal saya and type of leather cover, looking forward to more pics!

 

Doug

[Mikemike88]

[Mikemike88]

On 3/9/2024 at 8:35 PM, SteveM said:

Hi Michael,

The translation is accurate. As for the sword... as you guessed, we need to see it in order to make any comments that might be useful. From the pictures here, the fittings look to be in very good shape. Nicely preserved wrapping on the hilt/tsuka. The tassel also looks nice, but it could well be a later addition. I don't quite follow militaria much beyond translations, but tassels in good condition seem to be a much sought-after item. However the ones that collectors love are different from the one on your sword (I think, hopefully someone will help me out here). The scabbard is wrapped in leather, which is common, but we can't tell anything about the scabbard underneath the leather. With militaria, condition of the blade and of the fittings, is king. 

 

You'll obviously want to look for a signature on the tang. But just having a signature won't tell you too much unless you can read it, or post a picture of it here. The sword could be an old heirloom sword that was fitted with Imperial Japanese Army furnishings. This would be nice, but it changes the whole valuation/appreciation equation because it almost ceases to become "militaria" at that point, and instead becomes a sword antique that gets judged by a different set of criteria. The fittings become almost irrelevant, as most of the value will be in the blade itself. 

 

But just having a signature on the tang doesn't mean its an old sword. It could be a military sword that was made by an arsenal smith in the 1930s-1940s. These are kind of mass-produced blades that still had some element of human labor. The smith in charge of production will put his name on the tang. 

 

Anyway, if you can look at the tang and take some pictures, that will be helpful. If not, look for matching numbers on the metal parts if possible, as these are a good indicator that the sword isn't assembled from parts found on ebay. I note your comment about the provenance of the sword, but its always good to buy the blade and not the story. 

 

Anyway, too many variables to judge from the photos above, as 

Steve

 

More pics added. Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

Cheers

 

Michael 

[SteveM]

I think you got a very nice and collectible piece of WW2 memorabilia. Signature on the sword is

関住星谷義長

Seki-jū Hoshiya Yoshinaga

 

（Made by) Yoshinaga Hoshiya of Seki 

 

The fittings are in good/very good condition, the sword is in good condition for a WW2 sword, and the sword has a distinct mei, and is from a known smith...its all good. I think if you Google the smith's name, you can find other threads discussing other swords by him. The issue of the surrender tag is a side issue, but I think its probably OK, just a bit less worn than we normally see. With a WW2 sword and fittings in good condition like this, the presence (or lack) of surrender tag has minimal affect on the value of the ensemble. I think most people would like to have the tag as evidence of the sword's history, but, really, the condition of the sword and the scabbard are the important things - which is why I think think its a side issue. In any event, it is a real location in Japan, so if you ever wanted to research the presumed former owner, it can be done. 

 

[Mikemike88]

Steve

 

Many thanks for such a prompt reply and for your insights. 
 

Very much appreciated.

 

All the best.

 

Michael

 

[Mikemike88]

On 3/13/2024 at 1:16 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Ah, good on both counts.  Thanks for the update!  It's a good looking sword, I like it!

Looking back on previous posts didn’t you have a sword with a similar/same name on the tang?

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I have 4 others.  3, like yours, with the large Seki stamp, and 1, Apr '44, with a NA stamp.

 

And I agree with Steve, that's some really good metal-work on those fittings!

[Mikemike88]

On 3/10/2024 at 7:14 AM, The Blacksmith said:

Michael,

 

              Simply judging by the photos that you have supplied, the sword appears to be a reasonably nice example of WWII officers sword. This should fit nicely into your existing collection of WWII militaria, that is if the blade is not totally ruined. Unfortunately, they have often suffered damage at the hands of unknowing folks to whom it is simply an old sword. Sad, but true.

Hopefully, you will be able to get pictures of the blade posted. As it is, if it is just as a representative example of a WWII Japanese officers sword for your militaria collection, you seem to have done quite nicely, the fittings look good and are in quite nice condition. And, who knows, maybe the blade is a good one, or even an ancient one!  I'd be happy with it as an example in my collection, if the blade is reasonable.

I’ve attached more photos of the blade etc.

[Mikemike88]

On 3/15/2024 at 9:55 PM, SteveM said:

I think you got a very nice and collectible piece of WW2 memorabilia. Signature on the sword is

関住星谷義長

Seki-jū Hoshiya Yoshinaga

 

（Made by) Yoshinaga Hoshiya of Seki 

 

The fittings are in good/very good condition, the sword is in good condition for a WW2 sword, and the sword has a distinct mei, and is from a known smith...its all good. I think if you Google the smith's name, you can find other threads discussing other swords by him. The issue of the surrender tag is a side issue, but I think its probably OK, just a bit less worn than we normally see. With a WW2 sword and fittings in good condition like this, the presence (or lack) of surrender tag has minimal affect on the value of the ensemble. I think most people would like to have the tag as evidence of the sword's history, but, really, the condition of the sword and the scabbard are the important things - which is why I think think its a side issue. In any event, it is a real location in Japan, so if you ever wanted to research the presumed former owner, it can be done. 

 

I had the handle off again and saw some additional markings above the signature on the tang which I didn’t see when I was first shown the tang. What do these mean please? 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Hi Mike,

That mark in the yellow circle is what @Bruce Pennington was referring to as a "SEKI stamp"

Generally, it means that the sword was made with non-traditional methods in some way.

 

It is still a totally genuine sword from WW2, and very collectible amongst militaria collectors. Below is a link that describes some differences between various WW2 Japanese swords and stamps. 

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/showato.htm

All the best,
-Sam

[Mikemike88]

@GeorgeLuucas Thanks for the prompt response. I had looked at the various stamps before putting up the post but didn’t recognise this as matching the design of the Seki stamp which is why I reached out. However, now that you also specifically mention Seki, I’ve had another look and I think what has confused me is that the stamp has been applied incorrectly I.e. it’s only the top half of the stamp. Would you concur?

[GeorgeLuucas]

In my opinion the stamp looks to be applied “top heavy” and the bottom part of the stamp has a very faint impression compared to the top part. 

 

I’ve seen similar stamps on other swords - some more deeply imprinted than others. If you imagine hammering the stamp,  any slight angle will cause one side to be deeper than the other.

 

Cheers,

-Sam 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Sam has it.  A partially struck stamp can often have me stymied.  

 

The large Seki stamp was used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association from 1940-1944, with the majority of dated blades made in 1942.  So, you have an idea of approximately when your blade was made.  The association was a civil group asked by the sword industry to inspect showato for quality.  In the rush to meet the need of the Army when they switched from Western styles sabers to samurai style swords, there were shops putting out some poor quality blades.  Sword makers were alarmed and asked the association to inspect blades to weed out the bad ones.

[Mikemike88]

Cheers @Bruce Pennington. Thanks for that additional snippet of info.

[Mikemike88]

On 6/24/2024 at 10:29 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

In my opinion the stamp looks to be applied “top heavy” and the bottom part of the stamp has a very faint impression compared to the top part. 

 

I’ve seen similar stamps on other swords - some more deeply imprinted than others. If you imagine hammering the stamp,  any slight angle will cause one side to be deeper than the other.

 

Cheers,

-Sam 

 

 

Thanks for your assistance @GeorgeLuucas Sam.

[dyn]

I'd like to chime in if you don't mind. Since the sword has a seki stamp it actually cannot be imported into Japan even if you wanted to, so you can rest easy owning it since they definitely don't want it back. It's still a very nice sword with fittings in excellent condition, I'd be glad to own it if I were in your shoes. It's definitely closer to a piece of militaria than a piece of art though (which I guess is probably its intended purpose).

[Pincheck]

Not that it adds much to the discussion but I also have a showato katana signed Hoshiya Yoshinaga that looks a lot like yours. 
 

https://i.ibb.co/9gXS1mM/IMG-1203.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/t8QxkRY/IMG-1204.jpg