Nioi deki vs. Niei

[althesmith]

Is there a general opinion as to which is stronger? I understand niei is normally achieved by higher temperatures/times to promote grain growth, not something I would see desireable in a "user" blade as opposed to art blade.

[jeremy]

Usually for a "user" sword a nioi-deki hamon is preferable,  but there are more things to consider other than mere nioideki or niedeki hamon. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

http://www.nihontocr...hinshi_Masahide.html

 

https://www.nihontoc...tameshi_Nihonto.html

[Paz]

On 3/6/2024 at 1:56 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

http://www.nihontocr...hinshi_Masahide.html

 

https://www.nihontoc...tameshi_Nihonto.html

Very interesting read on masahide and the toranba hamon. 

 

From my research recently I gather that 

Sukehiro 

Masahide, tsunahide and his brother tsunatoshi All worked on the toranba hamon. 

From reading this it seems that toranba shinshinto hamon is superior in terms of functionality than shinto. I  belive I read this elsewhere aswell.

[Jacques D.]

Nioi deki or nie deki is not the only criterion to be taken into account in determining a sword's effectiveness. The architecture (shinogi or not), the length, the width and finally the thickness must all be taken into account.

[SteveM]

Tried to find a post by Darcy that listed what he considered the variable criteria for cutting efficiency, including what Jacques mentioned above, but also things like skill of the cutter, and the object being cut (leather armor vs. some other thing). If anyone has that, or can remember where it is, it would be useful for Al. I think he listed something like 5 or 6 factors

1. Shape

2. Sharpness

3. Skill of the cutter

4. Hardness of the target

5. (I think there was one other, but can't remember. Maybe the weight of the sword.)

 

And I don't recall if the hardness/durability of the sharp edge was a criteria; i.e. the sword that makes the best initial cut may  drop in the rankings for the 2nd or 3rd cut because its edge is now blunted. Anyway, it was a good read and very appropriate to this conversation. If I find it I'll post it here. 

[Jacques D.]

I think most people have a misunderstanding of how to use kakana.

 

 

[Franco D]

3 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Nioi deki or nie deki is not the only criterion to be taken into account in determining a sword's effectiveness. The architecture (shinogi or not), the length, the width and finally the thickness must all be taken into account.

 

Nioi, nie, hamon pattern, jigane (forging pattern, ji nie, utsuri, niku), materials, essentially it's the entirety of the sword and the combinations found therein that result in the effectiveness and durability of the sword. The advantage the early Koto smiths had were uninterrupted teaching lineage, direct feedback loops, and materials gathering. 

[Katsujinken]

7 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

I think most people have a misunderstanding of how to use kakana.

 

 

Context for cutting also matters when evaluating blades and “techniques”. For example KSR (in the video shared above) is an armored style and so the cutting mechanics are totally different from an unarmored style of kenjutsu. 

[Jacques D.]

Katori Shinto ryu techniques are designed for armored combat Otake sensei shows the different weak points of armors (inner wrist, hock, neck, femoral etc.).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshin_Shōden_Katori_Shintō-ryū