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Questions about Tsuba for project

Hannah

By Hannah
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Hannah Apprentice

Hannah

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  On 3/5/2024 at 2:30 PM, Brian said:

Files fit fine.
Any of them. Google free image resizers, takes a minute to resize down to a reasonable size

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If I have them on my desktop, how can I do that? I want to make this as accessible as possible so that the photos are seen on the post. Thanks :)

Hannah Apprentice

Hannah

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  On 3/5/2024 at 2:40 PM, Bugyotsuji said:

We have to ask you Hannah, what kind of camera were you using? Those are some of the fuzziest, strangely colo(u)red photos I have seen. 

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:laughing:

The ones with the red background were taken about 10 years ago by a previous group that did this tsuba, the others by an iPad. The reason they look bad is due to the 3D camera we had to use. Still trying to find the lost images, those were taken with the normal camera. 

DoTanuki yokai Mentor

DoTanuki yokai

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I think i see some gaps inside the Hitsuana and Nakagoana that could be signs of a multi layer construction or shadows of the overflowing cloisonne.

I dont think it looks fire damaged with the new pictures but more like an early work but i really don`t know much about cloisonne.

Here a picture that show the lines that could show the layers. (some of the new pictures show it better i think)

 

Screenshot 2024-03-05 22.26.01.png

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Brian

Brian

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Much better. Shape of the nakago ana is also a lot better than the previous pics and is closer to what a tsuba should be. Still an odd shape though, would have to be modified to fit a blade. I think we can be certain this wasn't any Shogunate piece. I'm still in the "made for the Dutch trade" camp here. Something flashy with cloissone for the Western market, maybe anywhere from 1600's to 1800's.

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Matsunoki Grand Master

Matsunoki

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Museum closes. Stuff gets de-accessioned. Stolen. Sometimes private museums sell stuff to raise funds. 
My feeling is that it is old though judging by the enamel colours and pitting and definite nod towards Chinese Ming cloisonné 

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Spartancrest Grand Master

Spartancrest

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  On 3/6/2024 at 9:31 AM, Hannah said:

Did the museum sell objects to people or might it have got lost? 

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There is a downloadable book here on the sale of "excess" tsuba from the Metropolitan Art Museum. Yes some museums do sell some [ or even all ] of their collections.

There is even one odd case of the Wolverhampton Museum being forced to give back a donated collection of tsuba which was then put up for private auction only to be bought in its entirety and donated back to the same museum [1924]. Tsuba can do a lot of moving about. :laughing:

 

 

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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Leaving behind centuries of Muromachi warfare, and gradually drifting away from actual battlefield practicality, the Edo aristocracy indulged more and more in gaudiness and showing off. 

Spartancrest Grand Master

Spartancrest

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Some extra data from a Japanese book - similar "shippo" guard.

I can't get a translation but it might be somewhere to have a look.

[I don't know why this example has the three holes through the plate (?) Perhaps some sort of 'O' seppa may have been fitted to reinforce the nakago-ana (?)]

 

shippo.jpg

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Brian

Brian

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Excellent find Dale!
If someone can work on a translation of that, I think that's your answer. It is too similar to not be related. I suspect this is the same age and history of the one under discussion.

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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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It suggests the end of Edo, a kenjohin for one of the three great Tokugawa families. Sandwich with a middle iron layer, doro shippo on the external plate. The holes look to be for pinning on solid gold seppa, the author thinks. The print is so faint at maximum magnification, that it's actually quite difficult to read.

 

15 mm x 9.1 cm.

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Matsunoki Grand Master

Matsunoki

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Hmmmm……I doubt that’s for “one of the great Tokugawa families” . Solid gold seppa…..doubtful? It does clarify the construction method which is interesting. Date??…..more likely to be late than early??

Not all old books are totally accurate maybe?

Great find @Spartancrest

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Spartancrest Grand Master

Spartancrest

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  On 3/8/2024 at 6:47 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

so faint at maximum magnification, that it's actually quite difficult to read.

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Yes sorry the book is small format and I am stuck with a poor camera- sorry about that, wish I had a scanner. :(

Odd how I just got the book delivered in time for this thread - funny how the universe works!

Try these images they are the best I can manage.

shippo.jpg

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EdWolf Mentor

EdWolf

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  On 3/8/2024 at 6:25 AM, Brian said:

Excellent find Dale!
If someone can work on a translation of that, I think that's your answer. It is too similar to not be related. I suspect this is the same age and history of the one under discussion.

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Using Google Lens gives you a pretty good translation.

Screenshot_20240308_104045_Google.jpg

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Hannah Apprentice

Hannah

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  On 3/8/2024 at 9:41 AM, EdWolf said:

Using Google Lens gives you a pretty good translation.

Screenshot_20240308_104045_Google.jpg

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  On 3/8/2024 at 6:47 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

It suggests the end of Edo, a kenjohin for one of the three great Tokugawa families. Sandwich with a middle iron layer, doro shippo on the external plate. The holes look to be for pinning on solid gold seppa, the author thinks. The print is so faint at maximum magnification, that it's actually quite difficult to read.

 

15 mm x 9.1 cm.

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  On 3/8/2024 at 3:27 AM, Spartancrest said:

Some extra data from a Japanese book - similar "shippo" guard.

I can't get a translation but it might be somewhere to have a look.

[I don't know why this example has the three holes through the plate (?) Perhaps some sort of 'O' seppa may have been fitted to reinforce the nakago-ana (?)]

 

shippo.jpg

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Hi, thank you so much. You said that the tsuba in question and this one are far too similar to not be related. But this would mean that both tsubas would be related to the Tokugawa Gosanke which I thought we established that it was far too low of a quality to have been. Just a little confused :laughing::dunno:

 

Hannah :)

Spartancrest Grand Master

Spartancrest

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  On 3/9/2024 at 4:25 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Dale, that's just terrible. What kind of camera are you using

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Well I have had to resort to an old 10.1 megapixel Cyber-shot camera from an Op-shop, my good camera just gave up one day. I am one of the increasingly rare and endangered persons who does not have a "smart phone" or indeed any phone - and yet I still live! [When they make it compulsory I presume they will give you a phone with your birth certificate? How else can they force you to have one? :laughing:]

I am sorry the images are poor, does anyone else have a copy of the book?

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