Questions about Tsuba for project

[Hannah]

What a shame. So there is no actual way to figure out whether it was just an Aoi-mon or for the Tokugawa shogunate except for the quality. 

 

There is some white writing on the sides, would that have been written by the maker or by the Dutch as identification? It also doesn't make sense to me why the Dutch would want to export a burnt and cracked tsuba. 

 

The numbers are -2-VM2039  P---285

(We used "-" for anything that we couldn't read)

[Okan]

Those are museum catalogue numbers.

[Brian]

It is definitely not for the Shogunate. That is impossible, quality even when not damaged would have been poor. Agree with Okan, those were added when it was in a collection. May have even come from a shipwreck.

[Hannah]

 

10 minutes ago, Brian said:

It is definitely not for the Shogunate. That is impossible, quality even when not damaged would have been poor. Agree with Okan, those were added when it was in a collection. May have even come from a shipwreck.

The damage would come from the shipwreck? So why would someone buy a damaged Tsuba? Do collectors care whether they are damaged, in good condition, or good quality? 

[Bugyotsuji]

There are tsuba out there in all kinds of states. I bought one with cherry flowers in sukashi, a large and pretty tusba, but later someone commented, "Too bad it's been in a fire!" Even so, you cannot lightly throw such a thing away. There is so much to learn from each one of these, even if the market value to collectors might be low. In fact, collectors can be among the fussiest people you'll ever meet.

 

As you grow to understand tsuba, you will begin to notice many things, including artefacts displayed in museums that are not particularly great examples.

[Brian]

They care a lot about quality. But museums tend to collect history more than quality. For example if this was a trade item that came from Japan to The Netherlands, or came from a Dutch ship, it would easily go into a museum because of the history involved and not the quality. I am not sure it came from a shipwreck. If it's iron (I assume you checked with a magnet) then I would expect more corrosion. I'm still leaning towards the theory of it having come from a Dutch ship trading with Japan in the 1800's. Having little experience with quality, they may have taken it in a batch, quality being irrelevant. But no way to prove that. Pity the museum number doesn't lead to some notes about it's acquisition in the archives.

[Hannah]

36 minutes ago, Brian said:

from a Dutch ship trading with Japan in the 1800's

I thought that due to the poor quality of the cloisonne, it was made in the 1600's?

[Bugyotsuji]

It could have been made in the 1600s, and collected by the Dutch and sent over in the 1800s… 

[Hannah]

Let's take the scenario that the fire damage had happened after its departure from Japan. Could it have been in use or as decor/collections in Japan? @Brian mentioned that it doesn't look like it was made for serious use, so what might it have been doing in Japan for almost 200 years? 

 

H.  

[Brian]

The Dutch traded with Japan between early 1600's and around 1859.
I don't really see this as a 1600's tsuba. It could be....sure. But there is nothing conclusive showing it is early. Could have been made for export at any time.
https://nagasakidejima.jp/english/history/

We've all seen the crude tanto made for the export market in the 1800's....why not hurriedly made tsuba? Could be early, no idea.
I doubt it lay around Japan for long. The Japanese simply didn't make stuff for decoration way back. It would have been made for mounting, which seems odd considering the shape. Again, all conjecture. Unless you can find someone to do some technical dating on the iron, going to be hard to decide. Fires were a thing in Japan. If it was in one, more likely it was there, than in Japan. But I think we'd see more scale.
Again, no way to really come to a conclusion easily, you picked a difficult one

[Bugyotsuji]

But you could form a list of possibilities, and discuss each one in turn. That would be interesting.

[Hannah]

21 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

I tried to look at it but the pictures kill my eyes  Seriously it looks like the Tsuba melts with the background and other LSD Stuff. 

I cannot say that i can provide any useful information with clear pictures but i certainly cannot with this .

 

Hi, I've added 17 new pictures with red backgrounds. You can find them at https://drive.google...Tflsiyq?usp=sharing. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough space to put them here.

Hope you can see it better!

Best, Hannah  

 

[ROKUJURO]

12 hours ago, Hannah said:

The damage would come from the shipwreck? ...... 

No, it has obviously been exposed to fire, and from the photos, it looks like a soft metal TSUBA (probably copper) to me.

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Hannah said:

Hi, I've added 17 new pictures with red backgrounds.

Wow Hannah, this is probably the biggest cache of images I have ever seen of one tsuba - it is certainly an interesting piece and has generated a lot of interest. Some images give me the impression of the tsuba being made of rock candy [slightly melting] - which would not be the first time tsuba have been turned into lollies or the latest "bubble" drink. 

         

[Hannah]

8 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

No, it has obviously been exposed to fire, and from the photos, it looks like a soft metal TSUBA (probably copper) to me.

Yep, it's iron and copper. 

[Bugyotsuji]

15 minutes ago, Hannah said:

Yep, it's iron and copper. 

Iron and copper both is unusual. The surface workings in copper? So, it's magnetic then?

[Hannah]

The tsuba seems to have a magnetic pull, specifically from the sides. Although I believe the surface is made of copper, which is not magnetic, the sides may have more traces of iron, hence the slight magnetic effect. 

47 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Iron and copper both is unusual. The surface workings in copper? So, it's magnetic then?

 

[ROKUJURO]

This is indeed highly unusual, also to me. This TSUBA remains a bit of an enigma, at least in parts. Perhaps it deserves more serious research, and new understanding of TSUBA technology may await us. I wished Ford would find the time to chime in.

[Brian]

I'd be interested in what magnetic pull means. If you grab a small magnet, does it stick firmly, and to where? Agree, this is an enigma.

[Bugyotsuji]

In some of those early shots, it looks as if it might have an iron fukurin around the outside rim.

 

A 'fukurim'? 

[Hannah]

26 minutes ago, Brian said:

I'd be interested in what magnetic pull means. If you grab a small magnet, does it stick firmly, and to where? Agree, this is an enigma.

We had a magnet about 2 cm in diameter and the magnetic pull was strong all around but it was strongest on the side (where the writing is) 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Hannah,
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but, if you haven't done so already, have a google around the words "shippou" and "shippou yaki. Shippou yaki 七宝焼 or しっぽうやき in hiragana is the name for the craft of Japanese enamel cloisonne work as it will give you some idea of the likely dates and area of production of your tsuba. You'll probably also get some hits on tsuba with an interlaced netted pattern resembling the "cloisons" of the enamel tsuba and a style of sword fittings but without the enamel infill so you'll need to filter these.

 

As Brian has said, your tsuba is probably no early than the 17th century as this is apparently when cloisonne work took off in Japan: https://katoshippo.c...story-of-cloisonne_e

 

In tsuba collecting and other Japanese arts there is the idea of "Hamamono" - things sold at the harbour. As you'll likely know, when Japan opened to the West in the 19th century there was great demand for articles of Japanese art to satisfy European fascination with orientalism, so lots of tsuba and other kinds of art objects were exported in bulk and these were of mixed quality as mass-production industries grew up to satisfy the demand in western countries (also, the Japanese not being fools, kept the best stuff for themselves). There's a chance that your tsuba was made or exported to Europe at this time or, of course, there may be many other explanations as to how it arrived here but it might be worth mentioning in your paper. Anyhow, Nagasaki was a significant port involved in this export trade and, as Brian said above, Nagasaki is also a place associated with cloisonne tsuba so this might be worth a mention too.

 

Good luck with your project and top marks for your research in finding a bunch of nerds like us to talk to.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Also, if you can get a shot diagonally/sideways into the central triangular hole, or into one of the side holes, a spot or section where the side wall is 'clean', maybe we can see if the tsuba is solid right through, or made up as a kind of sandwich of metals.

(Kagami-Shi or 'mirror makers' for example, often added two copper faces to their tsuba.)

 

No worries if you can't.

[Hannah]

1 hour ago, Shugyosha said:

Anyhow, Nagasaki was a significant port involved in this export trade and, as Brian said above, Nagasaki is also a place associated with cloisonne tsuba so this might be worth a mention too.

Would it have been possible for the tsuba to have been made in Nagasaki? Or was it just a port exporting goods? 

 

I also found this: From 1641 onwards, Dutch and Chinese ships were allowed entry to a Japanese port, the designated port being Nagasaki. Dutch traders resided on the artificial island of Dejima and were the only Westerners to be able to trade with Japan. 

[Hannah]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Also, if you can get a shot diagonally/sideways into the central triangular hole, or into one of the side holes, a spot or section where the side wall is 'clean', maybe we can see if the tsuba is solid right through, or made up as a kind of sandwich of metals.

(Kagami-Shi or 'mirror makers' for example, often added two copper faces to their tsuba.)

 

No worries if you can't.

No, unfortunately, we only had one chance to see the tsuba, so we took plenty of pictures. Unfortunately, we seem to have lost a few of them, but I'm working on recovering them. I've gone through the ones we have and zoomed in to get a better look. The quality isn't great, but it appears that the inside surface of the tsuba is covered in bumps and there doesn't seem to be any smooth part. You can check out the zoomed-in pictures here https://drive.google...Mwd1o?usp=drive_link 

 

H. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Just had a quick peek against my better nature (always afraid of looking at unknown files!) and in some of those shots it looks almost like two layers (of a layer cake) with a visible separation between them. Hmmm...

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, Hannah said:

Would it have been possible for the tsuba to have been made in Nagasaki? Or was it just a port exporting goods? 

 

I also found this: From 1641 onwards, Dutch and Chinese ships were allowed entry to a Japanese port, the designated port being Nagasaki. Dutch traders resided on the artificial island of Dejima and were the only Westerners to be able to trade with Japan. 

Hi Hannah, 

I’m honestly not sure how strong the connection is and it might just be coincidence but many schools of tsuba makers got their names from the places where they worked. 
 

I’ll have a dig around and see what I can turn up. 

[Hannah]

51 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Just had a quick peek against my better nature (always afraid of looking at unknown files!) and in some of those shots it looks almost like two layers (of a layer cake) with a visible separation between them. Hmmm...

Haha! Sorry, the files didn't fit. Would the layering be copper on one side and iron on the other? What might that suggest? It's magnetic (which copper is not) yet a lot of people are suggesting that it is copper. If it were only two layers, one would have to be made of a magnetic material (iron). 

 

H 

[Brian]

Files fit fine.
Any of them. Google free image resizers, takes a minute to resize down to a reasonable size

[Bugyotsuji]

We have to ask you Hannah, what kind of camera were you using? Those are some of the fuzziest, strangely colo(u)red photos I have seen.