curious about my nihonto origins

[ju-no]

Hello everyone,
I introduced myself in the appropriate post, I am a beginner but I am studying a lot, I open this post to ask for your help in finding information regarding my nihonto, the curiosity is too strong.

I immediately fell in love with the blade and its Hamon, as well as the coeval koshirae that owns a Kozuka though unfortunately very worn.

The biggest unknown is the signature on the nakago, which is partly erased (this adds to its mystery).
The readable part, as also transcribed in the Torokusho, reads:
住正廣 .

The antiquarian experts who sold it to me have : https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/MAS209
as a blacksmith

Sori: 1,8cm
Blade Lenght: 54,2 cm
 

I write here to gather as much information as I can, and by no means to question their analysis, which I think is correct, even analyzing the characteristics of the blade such as Hamon, Sori and various geometries.

any information you have on this is appreciated and I thank you in advance.

Thanks a lot in advance.
 

ps as soon the weather will be better i'll take more pictures by myself. these are from the seller.
 

[Shugyosha]

Hi there,

Welcome to NMB. I can’t tell you much without the close up pictures other than the blade has been shortened and the machi moved up. The peg hole nearest the butt of the tang was probably the original one. Also you can see the hamon running into the tang which it shouldn’t do on a full length blade. 
 

As to why the smith’s signature was partly erased, the tang might have been adjusted to help the tang fit a ready made tsuka or to perhaps leave it open to suggestion that the blade was by a different Masahiro. A blade by one of the Soshu Masahiro, for example, would be worth a lot more than by the one the seller’s ascribe it to. 
 

Anyway, it looks a nice blade and I look forward to seeing it in detail. 

[ju-no]

Arigatou goizamasu Shugyosha.

 

 

so don't you think that the sword might therefore belong to that masahiro I linked to (which is one of the less emblazoned)
 

BUt Could it still be an early EDO blade in your opinion? 

Is interesting the Suriage opinion, even a friend of mine told me,  hamachi and munemachi are almost unnoticeable, this could be another clue ?

 

I'll take more picture asap and I'll share with you.

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Andrea,

when you post more photos, please make sure that the NAKAGO photos are in the correct orientation (vertical, tip upwards) so we could read a signature.

And please sign all posts at least with your first name plus an initial; it is a rule here.

Looking forward to see more of your MASAHIRO.

[Shugyosha]

Sorry, I was just speculating as to why the mei was partially removed. I think the one you linked to is likely the smith or in any event it’s an Edo period blade. I’m sure the guys who sold it to you know their business. 

[ju-no]

17 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Andrea,

when you post more photos, please make sure that the NAKAGO photos are in the correct orientation (vertical, tip upwards) so we could read a signature.

And please sign all posts at least with your first name plus an initial; it is a rule here.

Looking forward to see more of your MASAHIRO.

I'm sorry, I will be more precise.

I Hope to take some decent pictures of the Hamon soon.

 

Andrea C.

[ju-no]

 

 

here some pictures of the blade, not again the best quality, done with Smartphone....

 

Andrea C.

kozuka had some italic kanji on it. but is damaged by the time.

Edited February 27, 2024 by ju-no
adding more pics

[Stephen]

[Stephen]

The nakago has been shaved for new fittings. 

Please post pics of the machi above the photo I rotated 

[ju-no]

here it is

 

Another point for the suriage: the Yarisune is absent

[ju-no]

hellooo, the pictures are not good?
Or is it the sword that doesn't deserve?

I hope not heheh

 

in the meanwhile I renovated the Habaki.

[jesup]

Generally you can do a lot more damage by trying to restore a blade or it's fittings, than by leaving it as is.   The surface condition of fittings is often important to the value and correctness.   Often the metal is purposely patinated, and even when it isn't, the age-caused patina is an important evaluation point.   Iron tsuba would be ruined if you removed the black rust patina, for example, or shakudo.   Never ever try to clean the nakago of a sword. 

 

In some cases they can be repatinated by an expert, but that's hard to find.

 

In this case, it appears the two-piece habaki was purposely patinated a dark color.

[ju-no]

35 minutes ago, jesup said:

Generally you can do a lot more damage by trying to restore a blade or it's fittings, than by leaving it as is.   The surface condition of fittings is often important to the value and correctness.   Often the metal is purposely patinated, and even when it isn't, the age-caused patina is an important evaluation point.   Iron tsuba would be ruined if you removed the black rust patina, for example, or shakudo.   Never ever try to clean the nakago of a sword. 

 

In some cases they can be repatinated by an expert, but that's hard to find.

 

In this case, it appears the two-piece habaki was purposely patinated a dark color.

Too late.... I was happy of the result, I was..... 😅

 

Any opinion about the blade? 

[Stephen]

For a plain over cleaned copper habaki it looks fine, patina with liver of sulfur for black.

One step more would be gold leaf...for top half...never paint..

.too tacky.

The blade is very tired ol work horse. Not much can be saved.

No Machi means no polish left.

[Shugyosha]

I’m sorry but I’m concerned about that hamon, it has had some serious hadori applied. It’s hard to see any activity in the hamon and you can see some of the original tang patina under the “hamon” which means it is not genuine. I’m not saying that there isn’t a hamon there, just that it has been enhanced. 
 

Also, there  are practically no machi so for a shinto blade its condition is well below par. 
 

Apologies for being negative, which I genuinely hate to do, but the blade has issues. Could you return it? 

[ju-no]

29 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

I’m sorry but I’m concerned about that hamon, it has had some serious hadori applied. It’s hard to see any activity in the hamon and you can see some of the original tang patina under the “hamon” which means it is not genuine. I’m not saying that there isn’t a hamon there, just that it has been enhanced. 
 

Also, there  are practically no machi so for a shinto blade its condition is well below par. 
 

Apologies for being negative, which I genuinely hate to do, but the blade has issues. Could you return it? 

I can't... I was happy of the blade before posting...  I don't ask you what could be the value, I'm afraid to know...

 

Thanks you all anyway. 

 

Bye

[jesup]

Don't be too upset.   Everyone starts somewhere, and that wasn't a horrible place to start.  Chalk it up for experience.   I still have the 1st blade I got, a WWII 'marines' semi-stainless blade I bought for use in kenjutsu, with seriously degraded tsuka.   And the 2nd blade, which just went out to Japan for polishing after owning it for almost 40 years -- it has multiple chips (2 probably too deep to remove); a slight bend happened at some point just south of the monouchi.  Virtually no ha-machi...  And the polish is such that one can barely be sure it has a hamon (narrow suguha or similar).   But.... It's a nambokucho o-suriage tachi with o-kissaki, still 30" ce (very long for a katana).  So we'll see what happens with a good polish.

 

And I have another shinto wakizashi with an unusual hamon (yahazu, notched).   But... big chip (not anywhere near through the hamon).  And what I couldn't see at the time (didn't know about it) - a mizukage line which almost certainly means it was retempered.  (Perhaps after a fire).  So it's saiha.   again, I learned, and it provided something to study.

 

Similarly, I have a shinshinto wak blade in full, recent polish; perfect condition; nicely signed Higashiyama ju Yoshihira.  A fairly big name.   And the signature is totally fake (gimei) - which I assumed when I bought it at a sword show 25 years ago, since no one in their right mind would have been selling that blade at that price in that condition if there was an outside chance the signature was good.  And I'm certain it isn't.   But: it's a really nicely made sword in full polish, and the first shinshinto blade I bought.   I bought it to study and because I liked how it looked.
 

So: don't get upset.   As mentioned above, the damage to the habaki isn't really a problem (though if you did that to other parts it might be).   It's rare that someone's first blade is really good, except by accident or if they really studied for a while (years) before buying. 

 

Welcome - you have lots to learn!  and a starting point.   My advice: invest in books, then branch out from there.

[ju-no]

I think I'll give up, I studied before buying this blade, I was conscious to buy a tired "entry" blade with my budget, but not a worthless thing (as Shugyosha said).

Btw pictures taken by smartphone under not proper light may had highlighted the hadori.

Anyway, at the moment i feel I've lost my money and interest too.

 

 

[Franco D]

There are steps that can be taken to learn something from this sword rather than just giving up. 

The simplest first step (nothing comes easy when it comes to nihonto) is to work on determining who this sword smith is and if the mei is shoshin or gimei. In the meantime, please do not attempt to restore anything else, just practice proper maintenance for now. Avoid using uchiko so as not to cause/create scratches (hiki). Another step is to begin recording detailed measurements and descriptions. Questions, ask. When in doubt ask.

Get that far, and then figure out what comes next. 

 

Regards,

[oli]

Thats learning, and the best way to learn ist to make mistakes. You should also get in contact with other collectors to see more blades. 

The Wakizashi is ok, it's a original Nihonto with history. Some startet with a Showato or chinese Fakesword. And most collectors in USA have much better opportunities to buy good Nihonto.

[Brian]

Sword really isn't so bad. Yes, it's lost the machi. Likely fixing chips. I don't see the blade being tired. Hadori is thick, but what we can see of the hamon, it doesn't run off.
Not a masterpiece, but not a write off either. It's genuine, complete and old. A lot better than many of us started off with.

[ju-no]

thanks all for your precious opinions.

speaking technically, the hamon from what you see (I will take more pictures, but here is raining from 5 days....) is correct to say is a notare ?  

 

other than the status of the nabaki from which charateristics I can recognize it a early Edo blade?

 

The geometry of the blade maybe even the SORI   could say that ?

[oli]

with the nagasa of  54,2 cm and suriage i think it was a Katana before, or am i incorrect? 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Oliver,

It might have been a long wakizashi (calculated by adding the distance between the two mekugi ana to the current length).

 

Andrea,

I think that the hamon is notare. If you can set up a room with the curtains drawn and a single light or point of light, then move the blade around so that the light plays up and down the hamon, you should be able to see the real hamon through the hadori with the nioi guchi shining through like a bolt of lightening. Have a look at the photos in this thread and see how the line of the hamon shines where it is just to the edge of where the light obscures it.

 

 

Please don't be upset, you've done no worse than many of us with a first blade and I have one where the polisher went way overboard with the hadori to create what he thought was a more "pleasing" hamon. The shape of the blade is typical of an early Edo period blade so nothing to worry about there. As regards your studies, as someone has said above, seeing blades and looking at them compared to what you have studied is key as it is difficult to learn from books alone.

 

 

 

 

[ju-no]

I apologize, measurement were written wrong, correct one are:

Nagasa 48.5 CM
Sori 1.2 CM

Sorry for the mistake.

@Shugyosha ,I am profoundly grateful to all of you, I am just a little angry with myself, despite having studied before proceeding with a purchase , I did not grasp this "feature" of the blade, I admit this out of ignorance, although I repeat, committed and studied consistently.

I'll try to do better pictures. thanks again to all

[ju-no]

1 question.

The Machi is near to absent, but its not why it is a Suriage??? 
Maybe not executed in the proper way.

[ju-no]

@Shugyosha@Shugyosha here you can see the hamon under the hadori. 
Was hard to to see in picture but live is more visible. I don't think it's notare 100%

[Shugyosha]

Hi Andrea,

Some blades have a mix of types of hamon or hada. Most of the descriptions of the characteristics of blades by smiths or schools of smiths are of a blade that can be fitted perfectly into that smith or school's work. In real life, a blade may not fit 100% with the characteristics of the "ideal" blade which is where things get complicated because the first thing that you learn is that there are rules, and a little later that there often exceptions to them and they become more like "guidance" than principles set in stone.

 

That's why it's very hard for us in the West to see enough blades to be competent beyond the basics of kantei (I know that I'm not, and the basics may not be there either).

 

Anyway, I hope that you're enjoying your blade more now and that you continue with collecting.

[ju-no]

Thanks again, I ask you one last courtesy  , can it therefore still be consideered "Notare based"  (in the picture is the bottom left)

 

have a good week.