Marc BROQUIN Posted November 10, 2009 Report Posted November 10, 2009 Hello all, :D I took the time to share a little bit of my passion with you. I got years ago a nice tsuba without any pretention but interesting because of the subject. I will let you find what it is. Please for those who know directly without research, let the other members some days to dig in their books and research as well. Best regards and good search Sincerely. Marc Quote
Brian Posted November 10, 2009 Report Posted November 10, 2009 Marc, I love your taste in tsuba, and that one is lovely to my eyes. Some very subtle touches there among the obvious glamour. Although I don't have an idea of the theme yet, it does appear to me to have a Chinese influence? I am sure this one is to be in the "Legends in Japanese Art" book downloadable from here Interesting looking theme. Guarding those pots or discovering them? regards, Brian Quote
Marius Posted November 10, 2009 Report Posted November 10, 2009 I got years ago a nice tsuba without any pretention but interesting because of the subject. Marc, could that be Susanoo fighting the Yamata no Orochi? Quote
Eric H Posted November 12, 2009 Report Posted November 12, 2009 Tricky my guess is : CHORYO threatened by the Dragon Eric Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted November 13, 2009 Author Report Posted November 13, 2009 Hello, :D Not too much answers till now. No it is not CHORYO. So I will give a small complement : This is story with jars of sake. Good search. Best Marc Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted November 16, 2009 Author Report Posted November 16, 2009 Hello, :D Everybody is gone skiing or what !!! :lol: No answer ! This the story of a certain legendary figure wanting to kill the 7 heads dragon after having made him drunk with 7 jars of sake. Would it be more clear ? I will give you the clear story in a couple of days... Hurry up !!! Sincerely Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 Hi Marc, If you say seven headed dragon it evokes the Nichiren story, no liquor in those stories. If you had said eight headed dragon it would be Susana-O and the Yamato no Orochi. In fact eight is a significant number in the Kojiki. Actually, I see only one head here, but, here's the story anyway. .So, having been expelled, [His-Swift-impetuous-Male-Augustness] descended to a place [called] Tori-kami at the head-waters of the River Hi in the Land of Idzumo. At this time some chopsticks came floating down the stream. So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, thinking that there must be people at the head-waters of the river, went up it in quest of them, when he came upon an old man and an old woman, --two of them,--who had a young girl between them, and were weeping. Then he deigned to ask: "Who are ye?" So the old man replied, saying: "I am an Earthly Deity, child of the Deity Great-Mountain-Possessor. I am called by the name of Foot-Stroking-Elder, my wife is called by the name of Hand-Stroking Elder, and my daughter is called by the name of Wondrous-Inada-Princess." Again he asked: What is the cause of your crying?" [The old man answered] saying: "I had originally eight young girls as daughters. But the eight-forked serpent of Koshi has come every year and devoured [one], and it is now its time to come, wherefore we weep." Then he asked him: "What is its form like?" [The old man] answered, saying: "Its eyes are like akahagachi, it has one body with eight heads and eight tails. Moreover on its body grows moss, and also chamaecyparis and cryptomerias. Its length extends over eight valleys and eight hills, and if one look at its belly, it is all constantly bloody and inflamed." (What is called here akahagachi is the modern hohodzuki [winter-cherry]) Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness said to the old man: "If this be thy daughter, wilt thou offer her to me?" He replied, saying: "With reverence, but I know not thine august name." Then he replied, saying: "I am elder brother to the Heaven-Shining-Great-August-Deity. So I have now descended from Heaven." Then the Deities Foot-Stroker-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder said: "If that be so, with reverence will we offer [her to thee]." So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, at once taking and changing the young girl into a multitudinous and close-toothed comb which he stuck into his august hair-bunch, said to the Deities Foot-Stroking-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder: "Do you distill some eight-fold refined liquor. Also make a fence round about, in that fence make eight gates, at each gate tie [together] eight platforms, on each platform put a liquor-vat, and into each vat pour the eight-fold refined liquor, and wait." So as they waited after having thus prepared everything in accordance with his bidding, the eight-forked serpent came truly as [the old man] had said, and immediately dipped a head into each vat, and drank the liquor. Thereupon it was intoxicated with drinking, and all [the heads] lay down and slept. Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness drew the ten-grasp sabre, that was augustly girded on him, and cut the serpent in pieces, so that the River Hi flowed on changed into a river of blood. So when he cut the middle tail, the edge of his august sword broke. Then, thinking it strange, he thrust into and split [the flesh] with the point of his august sword and looked, and there was a great sword [within]. So he took this great sword, and, thinking it a strange thing, he respectfully informed the Heaven-Shining-Great-August-Deity. This is the Herb-Quelling Great Sword. (tr. Chamberlain 1919:71-3) John Quote
Marius Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 Hello, :D Everybody is gone skiing or what !!! :lol: No answer ! Marc, I must admit, I have noticed a very low activity on the NMB recently, too. I wonder if that is seasonal? (Funny, John has posted the same moment as I have commented on your complaint, so maybe it is not so bad after all?) :D Quote
Eric H Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 Hi Marc, No skiing but otherwise relaxed Search in "Legend in Japanese art" and in "Ko-Ji-Ho-Ten" brought no results despite the hints, but it's easy to overlook something. A seven headed dragon does not exist whether in chinese nor Japanese mythology, only a eight-head one as in the previous story. Eric Quote
Guido Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 Marc, when I put some substantial time and energy into explaining a "three kingdoms" motif recently (a thread you were very active in) and - if I may be so immodest - came up with some so far unpublished and new research, all the flurry stopped and there was no response at all. I hope I don't sound somehow bitter, because I am not. It's just the nature of the beast (i.e. online forums). There are only a handful of people here who are looking beyond the Samurai lore and are willing to appreciate swords and fittings as an art form, and delve into the history and language. Yes, I know, I sound like a broken record, and I promise this will be the last post I mention it in. I actually - and finally - "found my peace" in not expecting serious posts on a regular basis. They still pop up from time to time, and I'll happily participate when they do. No responses to a post usually means people are busy hunting for a lost Masamune on eBay. Quote
Marius Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 No responses to a post usually means people are busy hunting for a lost Masamune on eBay. Guido, that was great! Quote
Eric H Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 Well, in the meantime I have always been waiting for an explanation by the more knowledgeable people relating to Tosogu generally and Tsuba specifically... Eric Quote
John A Stuart Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Marc, Those darned wine? jars really through a curve. Without a reference to a multi-headed dragon, looking at the subject matter I notice; one warrior in Chinese armour/dress with a jian (straight double-edged sword), a single-headed and single-tailed dragon in clouds/rain, a seashore, four jars. Taking this as a Chinese myth, I would suppose it was the scene of one of the Lung Wang making a yearly report to Yuan Shi Tian Zong. These dragons among other things are responsible for rain, the ending of drought etc. The jars in this case representing wealth and prosperity of the Lung Wang in their undersea kingdoms. If you keep within Japanese mythos, it could be Isora at the behest of Empress Jingo asking Ryujin for the jewels that control tides to defeat a Korean invasion. The Chinese dress showing the courtly dress of that time. The only anomally is the jars. My only question, Marc, is how does this scene become the Shinto myth, as in the Kojiki, without eight heads, eight tails, eight gates or eight jars. John Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Posted November 18, 2009 Hello, :D Yes, you are right my dragon had already lost one of its heads. ; You are right it should have had eight heads. Sorry for that. I know that not too many people are realy involved in searching for old Japanese stories due to many causes. And I am not affected at all if there are only few answers. I hope to create only more interest for those legends. I have not resisted to tease you a bit and the result is magnificent. Many have answered.On the other side if you do nothing, no result can be expected. Mariusk at first thought to SUSANO-O no MIKOTO et John confirmed the determination with a lot of details. Bravo !! I can add a small description of the KOJI HOTEN from V.-F. Weber which reaches a lot that one of John : SUSANO-O no MIKOTO is a SHINTO primitive god, adored under the name of GOZU TENRO, as the god of ocean and moon. He has been born from the nose of IZANAGI and was the brother of AMA TERASU (godess of light). In his youth, he was turbulent and because of his disrespectful and outrageous behaviour, his sister AMA TERASU retired in a cave, and plunged the world in obscurity. For all his harms, the impetuous male had been forced out from the Celestial Kingdom. And coming down to Earth he arrived in Izumo land. He saw on a riverside two old people crying. Having them asked upon the reasons of their sadness, he was tought that they were king and queen of that land and that their last daughter will have to be driven near the big rocks in order to be devoured by a monster snake with 8 heads, the Yamato no Orochi and that this monster devoured already 7 of their children. SUSANO-O no Mikoto tried to console them as much as he could and promised to try to avoid this new misfortune. He prepared himself to fight the monster. He set height jars of sake on the seashore, went to hide himself behind the rocks and waited for the monster arrival. Towards the evening an height headed dragon appeared on the shore, saw the jars and attracted by the sake for which he had a serious inclination, plunged its height heads in the jars. Drunken by the liquid, it felt in a deep sleep. In one cut he severed the heads of the dragon. Then as he wanted to took the sword from the tail, a lot of clouds gathered above the hero : then he called the sword AMA no MURAKUMO no TSURUGI (Sword that gathers clouds). Therefore the nice KUSHI-INADA HIME had been rescued from an hawful death by the god SUSANO-O no Mikoto, who married her afterwards and they had many children. It is interesting to see that in the same tale, they speak first about a snake which after appears to be a dragon. The second thing : most pairs of dragon menuki are composed of one male and one female. The male has always a ken at the apex of its tail; The question is : is it a sign of remnant caracteristic due to this legend ? You are right John by writing that the dragon has only one head on the tsuba, that there are only 4 jars of ... sake ? and that the presumed SUSANO-O no Mikoto is strangely dressed, more chinese way than Japanese. But having it shown to some Japanese experts, they admit there was no possible other determination. But it is often the case in those tsuba from the 19th century the full scene is not complete. You can find a complete scene tsuba in the KOJI HOTEN Vol II p345 (tsuba from MINAMOTO SHIGEHIRO). The picture is a bit dark to be copied and figured in this forum. A lot of Japanese artists (CHOSHU in particular) used chinese dressed characters instead of Japanese ones, so I am not choked by that. Thanks for your cooperation and participation Sincerely Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted November 18, 2009 Report Posted November 18, 2009 Thanks for the excercise Marc, I am sure that if us westerners had been brought up learning Japanese fables instead of Grimm's or Mother Goose there would have been people more comfortable in answering. We have to know more about the subject of Asian mythology to understand what Japanese art is all about, otherwise we miss a whole lot of the story. John Quote
Jean Posted November 18, 2009 Report Posted November 18, 2009 I love Andersen and Perrault too :D :D Quote
Marius Posted November 18, 2009 Report Posted November 18, 2009 I know that not too many people are realy involved in searching for old Japanese stories due to many causes. And I am not affected at all if there are only few answers. I hope to create only more interest for those legends. Marc, I did enjoy it thoroughly. Thank you And, I enjoyed it not because I happened to guess the right answer, but because I see nihonto as a part of the wonderful Japanese history and culture. Quote
Eric H Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 The Tsuba from Ko-Ji-Ho-Ten Eric Quote
Jean Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 Eric, You too have a fine library Quote
Eric H Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 Jean, yes, all books are from a pawn shop Eric Quote
Jean Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 Eric, You are a lucky guy. I remmber a few years ago that the French Credit Municipal (aka "my Aunt") had put on auction 3 Japanese swords. It is the most well known.Pawn organism in France Quote
Eric H Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 :lol: :lol: :lol: Jean, that was a joke. All books I have acquired over many years have been paid with hard Swiss-Francs. Eric Quote
Jean Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 I knew it, it was just a tease :D As there is no market in this kind of books , the only possible thing to get cheap library is to wait for an inheritance going to auction, which happens from time to time in France, often there is not even an estimated price Quote
John A Stuart Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 I see that they are called sake jars in the description, whereas in the story it has been eight times distilled. That would make it Super Socho, I'd think' A lot of elements are there, in that tsuba John Quote
Eric H Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 Jean, as you know I appreciate your refreshing humor :D Eric Quote
Jean Posted November 19, 2009 Report Posted November 19, 2009 Eric, You have in my profile my e-mail address. Use it to send me yours, as PM is out of order. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.