Getting started as a new collector- seeking advice

[Cygnus]

Hi all, What a wonderful resource these forums are. I will make sure to continue browsing and learning, but in the mean time, I am hoping for some general advice. I have experience with collecting ancient coins, fossils, minerals, manuscripts, and ancient antiquities of many types, so I do understand generally how values can be determined and that there are categories for all things collectible. That said, ill cut to the chase:
I am looking to start my collection with something simple and meaningful, but not particularly valuable. For me, this would be a something as old as possible with a signature, my hope would be 14th century or older, but I don't know if that is realistic or not. I would gladly sacrifice koshire, gimei, fatal flaws, rust, chips, warping, amateur cleaning etc etc. The idea being that this would be a starter piece to inspire the rest of the collection as it grows, filling out more handsome pieces as I determine what moves me. What are the price ranges for nihonto in this category? Do they come up for sale outside of an abused private collection from time to time? Hopefully that was clear. I would love to continue the conversation in the comments. Thanks in advance.

[waljamada]

One starter is join some nihonto groups on Facebook.  You are gonna have to watch what comes up and keep your eye out and in the meantime look at swords/discussions that are posted and study them a bit.  Someone here may have something that could work so post on the "Wanted to Buy" section on this website, give a general description of things such as "a blade with some age", stay open minded and give a budget.  The answer to your budget question is more personal and its what you can afford or are willing to spend.  I do suggest as a general rule to never go into bad debt to purchase a sword.  Lastly you can get a wakizashi which is a shorter blade (say under 24" cutting edge) for cheaper than a katana length.  So I would say that a better condition wakizashi would be preferable than a rough shape katana at the same price.  Also in general I do suggest it is worth it to spend a bit more to get something in better condition so you can really see what it's all about and take a deeper note of things to appreciate.  Nothing like a solid example in had to study/learn/inspire.   My first blade had issues but also had enough nice things about it to get me excited, then curious...then hooked.

[oli]

Start with books, look in the FAQ. 

14th century or older, in good condition and signature is very expensive. And buy only from trusted source, like here the seller section, or well known seller (look into links) and it should have papers if its so old. Look on https://www.aoijapan.com , to get a feeling about prices.

 

 

 

[Nihonto student]

Dear Grant,

 

your post respects the doubts of many at the entrance to the world of nihonto, a vast and complex world where for every rule there are 1000 exceptions and paradoxes which makes it difficult to make statements that are dogma. Having made this introduction, I first of all join Oliver in advising you to control your purchasing impulse and invest your money in books and your time here in the forum (There are always blades for sale). As far as possible, however, I would like in a general way to try to express some concepts to answer your doubts, although, as already said, each statement deserves to be properly contextualized.
I would start by saying that the first question to ask yourself is why I want to buy a Japanese sword, the answer to this "simple" question will give you many indications on the characteristics that the object you desire must have, this is because for example if you are looking for a sword to place on the furniture and talk about it with friends (No offense to anyone) any blade in fair condition can accomplish this task, if instead you are looking for a sword as an object of study for a specific period/school...etc. maybe resell it in the future to buy another one then the object must have certain characteristics.
Given your experience as a collector, I seem to understand that historicity is a relevant element for you, as far as Japanese swords are concerned, older is not automatically more expensive even if certainly when talking about pre-1400 blades, historicity certainly has an important weight in evaluation and this leads me to answer your question regarding the price...asking how much a nihonto costs is like asking how much a painting costs, the answer can only be "which painting?" As with paintings, the Japanese sword has more highly rated artists than others for each historical period and the evaluation of each work, even of the same smith, can vary significantly based on the quality of the work itself and its conditions, just to mention a couple of variables. In these terms, the description of the blade you are looking for, although generic, is very ambitious and can ideally represent the dream of many collectors. A signed blade from the Kamakura period in excellent condition from a renowned school/smith

obviously certified you can get above 100.000 but you can also find blades from the same period (Minor school, unsigned, not immaculate conditions, intrinsic quality of the work not excellent etc..) that start from 7/8.000. This simply to make you reflect (Without any offense) on the phrase "I do generally understand how values can be determined", even if you have been a collector for a long time the Japanese sword represents a world of its own in art and knowing it, appreciating it, evaluating it, is the study of a lifetime.

Regarding the purchase there are specialized dealers in the US that you can find here also here on the forum, or a dealer in Japan as  Aoiart that Oliver suggested to you but in this case you will have to consider inquiring yourself about the import documentation and each country is different in this , furthermore in the United States there are several sword shows (Tampa, Vegas etc..) which in your case would be an excellent opportunity not only for a potential purchase but also to start having a direct comparison with this world and have the opportunity to see different blades to start building the foundations of your knowledge. 

I guess now you will have even more doubts...welcome to the club .

 

Regards,

Giordy

[Conway S]

Grant, 

 

There is an excellent sword show in Chicago at the end of April. I highly recommend making the trip if you can. You’ll be able to see a wide range of swords of various quality and different price points. Many of the well known collectors and dealers on the NMB attend. It is a good place to see swords in person and learn (and find reference books).
 

http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/

 

Conway

[Stephen]

I echo Conway, books are good,  but in hand is better. Try to make the lectures as well, your experience in collecting leads me to think your not shy about asking questions.  Most dealers who are ther to make sales will be happy answer your questions. 

 

Un less something bites you the first day kinda hold off till last day...you might not want to wait if something speaks to you.  

 

Happy hunting sir it's a lifetime adventure enjoy the ride.

[ChrisW]

If you like, the Indiana Token Kai has monthly meetings. We are based in central Indiana. Message me if you'd like more info! Our next meeting is on the 24th this month.

[Jussi Ekholm]

What would be your approximate budget? You can find signed old pieces for reasonable amounts as Giordy mentioned above,

[Cygnus]

20 hours ago, waljamada said:

One starter is join some nihonto groups on Facebook.  You are gonna have to watch what comes up and keep your eye out and in the meantime look at swords/discussions that are posted and study them a bit.  Someone here may have something that could work so post on the "Wanted to Buy" section on this website, give a general description of things such as "a blade with some age", stay open minded and give a budget.  The answer to your budget question is more personal and its what you can afford or are willing to spend.  I do suggest as a general rule to never go into bad debt to purchase a sword.  Lastly you can get a wakizashi which is a shorter blade (say under 24" cutting edge) for cheaper than a katana length.  So I would say that a better condition wakizashi would be preferable than a rough shape katana at the same price.  Also in general I do suggest it is worth it to spend a bit more to get something in better condition so you can really see what it's all about and take a deeper note of things to appreciate.  Nothing like a solid example in had to study/learn/inspire.   My first blade had issues but also had enough nice things about it to get me excited, then curious...then hooked.

 

Thank you. This is great advice and always the hardest part. It always seems like a big part of learning is making mistakes, but in this hobby that could cost a fortune! The waki/katana price distinction makes perfect sense and would still satisfy to get started. Per your suggestion,  I have already joined some nihonto FB groups. Much appreciated.

 

20 hours ago, oli said:

Start with books, look in the FAQ. 

14th century or older, in good condition and signature is very expensive. And buy only from trusted source, like here the seller section, or well known seller (look into links) and it should have papers if its so old. Look on https://www.aoijapan.com , to get a feeling about prices.

 

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation on finding books. I will definitely check it out. Yes, I fully expected something in the "fine" 14c category to be very expensive. I do not intend to spend 5 figures or more for at least a year or two. What I am looking for, at least I tell myself right now, is something more of an "artifact" quality; a nihonto that has less appeal outside of its historical category, though I do want a signature if possible, even if gimei. 

 

14 hours ago, Nihonto student said:

Dear Grant,

 

your post respects the doubts of many at the entrance to the world of nihonto, a vast and complex world where for every rule there are 1000 exceptions and paradoxes which makes it difficult to make statements that are dogma. Having made this introduction, I first of all join Oliver in advising you to control your purchasing impulse and invest your money in books and your time here in the forum (There are always blades for sale). As far as possible, however, I would like in a general way to try to express some concepts to answer your doubts, although, as already said, each statement deserves to be properly contextualized.
I would start by saying that the first question to ask yourself is why I want to buy a Japanese sword, the answer to this "simple" question will give you many indications on the characteristics that the object you desire must have, this is because for example if you are looking for a sword to place on the furniture and talk about it with friends (No offense to anyone) any blade in fair condition can accomplish this task, if instead you are looking for a sword as an object of study for a specific period/school...etc. maybe resell it in the future to buy another one then the object must have certain characteristics.
Given your experience as a collector, I seem to understand that historicity is a relevant element for you, as far as Japanese swords are concerned, older is not automatically more expensive even if certainly when talking about pre-1400 blades, historicity certainly has an important weight in evaluation and this leads me to answer your question regarding the price...asking how much a nihonto costs is like asking how much a painting costs, the answer can only be "which painting?" As with paintings, the Japanese sword has more highly rated artists than others for each historical period and the evaluation of each work, even of the same smith, can vary significantly based on the quality of the work itself and its conditions, just to mention a couple of variables. In these terms, the description of the blade you are looking for, although generic, is very ambitious and can ideally represent the dream of many collectors. A signed blade from the Kamakura period in excellent condition from a renowned school/smith

obviously certified you can get above 100.000 but you can also find blades from the same period (Minor school, unsigned, not immaculate conditions, intrinsic quality of the work not excellent etc..) that start from 7/8.000. This simply to make you reflect (Without any offense) on the phrase "I do generally understand how values can be determined", even if you have been a collector for a long time the Japanese sword represents a world of its own in art and knowing it, appreciating it, evaluating it, is the study of a lifetime.

Regarding the purchase there are specialized dealers in the US that you can find here also here on the forum, or a dealer in Japan as  Aoiart that Oliver suggested to you but in this case you will have to consider inquiring yourself about the import documentation and each country is different in this , furthermore in the United States there are several sword shows (Tampa, Vegas etc..) which in your case would be an excellent opportunity not only for a potential purchase but also to start having a direct comparison with this world and have the opportunity to see different blades to start building the foundations of your knowledge. 

I guess now you will have even more doubts...welcome to the club .

 

Regards,

Giordy

 

Thank you Giordy for that thorough and lengthy reply! I think your sentiments reflect mine closely. To be more clear on the price question, (please correct me here if I am far off), I am starting to form categories in my mind. Looking through auctions etc, I see an abundance of swords in the 400-1000 range[entry tier?], 3-10k range[beginning of the true collectible tier], and [10-20k mid-higher tier, yet common] and prices beyond this being for exceptional pieces. Obviously pricing can be anywhere in between. I want to be extremely cautious and learn as much as I can before spending thousands for obvious reasons. At the same time, it seems like with a little bit of earned confidence, it would be hard to lose much money on a sword in the 400-1000 range for two reasons: 1) that market appears to be very liquid, and 2) less money is at risk. It seems like a good price range to cut one's teeth and learn a few lessons while loosing a couple hundred bucks here or there before taking bigger risks. 

 

Also just so we are clear, I am under no illusions that I "understand how values can be determined" specifically with nihonto!  though I am beginning to see which general factors are at play, I know nothing of them with intimacy, learning this is probably the most enjoyable part of the journey of collecting for me. The shows are a great suggestion. I am going to try for Chicago! Thank you for all of your suggestions.

 

 

13 hours ago, Conway S said:

Grant, 

 

There is an excellent sword show in Chicago at the end of April. I highly recommend making the trip if you can. You’ll be able to see a wide range of swords of various quality and different price points. Many of the well known collectors and dealers on the NMB attend. It is a good place to see swords in person and learn (and find reference books).
 

http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/

 

Conway

Boom. Sounds like a fantastic idea. It'll be my 40th birthday weekend and not too far to drive. Thanks for the recommend!

 

13 hours ago, Stephen said:

I echo Conway, books are good,  but in hand is better. Try to make the lectures as well, your experience in collecting leads me to think your not shy about asking questions.  Most dealers who are there to make sales will be happy answer your questions. 

 

Un less something bites you the first day kinda hold off till last day...you might not want to wait if something speaks to you.  

 

Happy hunting sir it's a lifetime adventure enjoy the ride.

You are soo right. As an appraiser for nearly 20 years the only way to truly develop a proper nose is getting your hands full and a good sniff. I am sure for you guys some pieces jump out from across the room, good and bad. Thanks for the good wishes!

 

6 hours ago, ChrisW said:

If you like, the Indiana Token Kai has monthly meetings. We are based in central Indiana. Message me if you'd like more info! Our next meeting is on the 24th this month.

Thanks for the invite.  The drive is a bit much, but who knows what the future might bring.

 

5 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

What would be your approximate budget? You can find signed old pieces for reasonable amounts as Giordy mentioned above,

 

Being a newb, I want to hold back risky money for at least a year- as others have said, Im probably better off investing in books and learning. Based on what little I have seen, there seems to be a lot in the sub 1k price range, but I would even say that I am looking for something lower in the "junk tier", rusty, chipped, cracked, warped, fatally flawed, amateur restoration, etc. I am curious what flaws "kill" an otherwise desirable sword. Please forgive me if this sounds like blasphemy, I expect that it does. In the coin business, improperly cleaned or "ex jewelry" specimens fall into this category and are often good temporary placeholders in a collection. I want my first piece to be an artifact of interest, and not necessarily pretty, or at least non-conforming to what is the mainstream sought after qualities. Do signed (even if gimei) 14th-15thc wakizashi or katana exist in the 4-800 range? and if so, how visually unappealing are we talking? I would much rather have an abused muromachi period piece for my first sword than a pretty edo or later piece, if that makes sense.

 

Of course in my fantasies I have grand designs but I know enough to know that I haven't a clue even where I want to focus yet - periods, blade types, kashira, makers oh my! Eventually I'll have to settle into something. I just want to scratch the itch in a particular way (an artifact of age and mystery) before I knuckle down and commit to a niche.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughtful replies!

 

-Grant

[Nihonto student]

Grant, forgive me for being long-winded but it's always difficult to summarize certain concepts... indicating an entry level threshold is always a bit subjective but I would say first of all that there are two base factors to mention, the reference market (Japan and the United States generally have average prices much lower than in Europe, also for tax reasons) and the type of blade...tachi, katana, wakizashi or tanto, where  long blades (Tachi/katana) are more coveted and generally more expensive  but as I was saying there are no fixed rules... you can find a tanto which for various reasons costs 20 times more than a long blade.
I find your idea of price ranges correct overall, I can understand your idea of starting from the bottom and in any case regardless of your budget I wouldn't recommend a 20,000 blade as a first purchase it would be like buying an expensive bottle of wine without knowing anything about it, at most you can say it's red... so generally in the 400-1000 price range beyond historicity you will find little that has to do with art or even less a piece that gives you the opportunity to learn (The opportunities to find something decent exist but it is not the rule ).
My advice,  is to think of a budget  around 3,000, in this range you can already find some interesting objects, for long swords you won't be able to have too many expectations but for wakizashi and tanto you will already find signed and certified blades.  Remember also to consider the price compared to the complete purchase package, i.e. what is sold together with the blade? Koshirae? Shirasaya? Both? the cases obviously have a value and can be very high... if you think of the blade as a painting think of the mount as its frame.

Regarding the risk, some considerations:

I would like to say that Japanese swords are generally not a good investment in an economic sense, we can say they hold up inflation well but increasing their value over time is a bit optimistic and in any case subject to price fluctuations  like the entire art world. In most cases when you resell a sword you will not get back the money you spent on it, so be aware of this. The first thing to avoid scams is to contact a reliable dealer like the many you can find here on the forum and avoid buying on ebay or secondary auctions, to buy there you must already have a certain eye, then regarding the certifications the only one truly recognized on a global level it is issued by the NBTHK in Japan of which you can see the various rankings here https://www.japanswo...tificates-standards/ . Having an NBTHK certificate does not automatically increase the value of the blade (Sometimes yes depends on what degree of attribution is given along with other factors) but exponentially increases its saleability (This will be familiar to you from the world of coins) however even they are not infallible and you will find many posts here on the forum where attributions are discussed.

 

Regards,

Giordy

 

[SteveM]

Giordy has some good advice. I completely agree with the recommendation to avoid problematic swords, and instead look into buying a low-end-but-certified sword. And avoid ebay. There are several dealers on this site who probably have such a sword in their stocks. I think the wine analogy is a good one. If you want to learn about wine, you don't need to buy the most expensive bottle in the shop, or even a mid-range bottle. But you do need to buy a bottle that isn't broken or corked or way past its vintage date. So avoid swords that are broken, chipped, grinded, sanded, rusted to the point where you can't see anything, etc... These swords have nothing to teach you, and are just a pointless waste of money. 

 

A koshirae is nice to have, but not necessary. (The sword should come with a plain "shirasaya" scabbard for storage). Koshirae are a different area of study, and aren't essential to learning about sword basics. Usually you end up studying koshirae one way or another, but it isn't mission-critical that your first sword comes complete with a koshirae.

 

Gimei is a topic unto itself, but there can be very good swords that have false signatures on them. But this starts to get into the "deep end" of the pool. I would stick to the shallow end before diving head first, because the shallow end has a lot of important lessons. The shallow end is where you learn the skills to go deeper. When you buy a junk sword you waste money and time that could better be spent on studying something that can actually help you.  

 

Now this is really getting deeper, but if you have the time and the patience, this article is well worth reading. 

 

[Nihonto student]

55 minutes ago, SteveM said:

 If you want to learn about wine, you don't need to buy the most expensive bottle in the shop, or even a mid-range bottle. But you do need to buy a bottle that isn't broken or corked or way past its vintage date.

 

Nice to see that we have another passion in common Steve cheers!

[Jussi Ekholm]

Giordy and Steve gave some solid advice.

 

I would recommend at least 500,000 yen budget if looking for old signed tachi. Here are few (authenticated by NBTHK) examples in that range, not that none are these are very desirable items but they show that can be achieved for small budget.

Hidekage: https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/m1064309208 (unfortunately sword dealer had took the info down on the site when it went to Yahoo JP)

Tsuneie: https://www.aoijapan...fune-ju-den-tsuneie/

Moriyuki: https://www.e-sword....katana/1910-1012.htm

Hisamitsu: https://www.e-sword....katana/1610-1080.htm

[Andi B.]

My two general advices for beginners:

 

1. Look for blades in good conditions. 🤓

Forget the idea of buying yunky and suspicious blades and let them restored (unless you have a really good eye and know a professional polisher).

Compare the price of a nice blade vs. the price of a yunk blade + restoration cost + risk of hidden flaws + time to wait... 

As soon you've seen undamaged and polished blades with some nice activities, you won't become happy, if your blade is only a rusty yunk piece lacking all the Nihonto-typical beautiful features.

(If you're interested in Dutch oil paintings, would you buy a scraped-off canvas only because it's old...?)

 

2. Know your stuff. 🧐

I compare sword collecting with collecting mushrooms in the forrest:

There you only take pieces home you can safely identify (at least as eatable). Ok, as beginner your meal might be small, but you surely wouldn't risk your health by taking pieces unknown to you - especially if they are ugly and rotten. Instead of playing with the idea of eating them, you would simply ignore them.

With growing expertise your meal will become larger and - more important - tastier!

Same with swords and tosogu:

If something is strange or suspicious (fakes!), simply don't buy it. And even if a sword might be authentic - there is no benefit in buying a piece which causes bad gut feelings due to its bad conditions...

[The Blacksmith]

Nobody has so far mentioned Gendaito and Shin-Gunto, which surprises me.  There are some really nice blades, sometimes even old ones available in a WWII mounting. Some of these mountings are in themselves extremely interesting. The blades found in these, like the wine analogy, vary enormously. It would be quite easy to find a really nice sword in this catagory at a very reasonable price, that would give you the basis for further study and appreciation.

Also, there is the question of care and maintenance, do you know how to look after a Japanese blade etc, what to do, and more importantly, what not to do. Owning a really nice old blade gives us a tremendous responsibility to look after and mainatin it for the next generation, something that of course as a collector you will already know Grant, so my apologies if this sounds like I am preaching, it isn't meant like that, but this is something that is sometimes overlooked, especially by beginner collectors. I have had absolutely beautiful mounted swords, and to be honest, owning and caring for them sort of scared me, which perhaps explains part of my own later fascination with Shin-Gunto.  The thought of a WWII sword but perhaps even with a blade that is several hundred years old, is in itself fascinationg ( my oldest was Nambokucho !), but there are many blades in these mounts, not necessarily that old, that will tick all the boxes, or at least some of them, and spur you on as a collector and inspire your further study of this vast, but fascinating subject.

I hope that you make it to one of the big shows in the US, I am envious of this possibility I must admit, and perhaps you might even be able to meet up with one or two of the members here who can help to make the visit a little more interesting and informative.

Happy hunting Grant.

[Alex A]

Must say, well done Grant.

 

Nice to see a sensible approach from a newbie with realistic expectations.

 

Briefly, if you want old at a reasonable price, expect a worn signed tanto or wak in shrasaya by lower tier smith, maybe mumei with or without papers. Occasionally see them, expect to pay around £1200 upwards

 

Sometimes see signed late Muromachi Tanto at reasonable prices. I picked up a signed Muromachi Mino Tanto here in the sales section a good few years ago, a few tiny chips but in good polish. $650. Needed a tsuba and re-wrap.

 

You need patience and lots of time trawling sites, i will warn you though, it can become addictive. Lost count of the tuts and comments i received from the Misses whilst on such quests.  A great way to learn.

 

Being brief, as mentioned above, lots to consider and compromises involved.

 

We have a few experienced genuine sellers here, that wont rip you off.  

 

Good luck.

[Winchester]

OP, I will provide feedback that as a newer collector of about 3-4 years, I learn far more by networking, going to shows and watching what few, quality, videos I can find online.

 

While I study daily, there is no replacement in my limited experience to talking in person to experts and collectors or a few days at a show. 
 

In summary, I echo the advice to review pieces in hand and ask questions. I will note that as you continue to dive deeper in your understanding, the art becomes more impactful and rewarding.

[Jon]

As a fellow collector of coins and antiques who also got into Japanese art swords..I would say the following….you will probably want to turn on its head a lot of what you expect from your other collections. The key thing to remember is that unlike European weapons etc Japanese swords are essentially art in steel that also happens to be some of the best designed and constructed swords ever made.. but to be able to appreciate this art of steel you have have be able to see the character of the steel and the only way to do that is if the blade has been polished by an expert polisher…this is the profoundly different from everything you will be use to..to truly understand your sword and the steel it will need to have been polished, which is a destructive removal of layers of steel..so where as on an old coin you want the patina of age…a Japanese sword, to be studied and appreciate needs to be made to look like it has just been forged…only then can you see the steel..but the the tang is left to tell you it’s story and history.

 

what this means is for your first blade always make sure it is in Polish…this is vital, don’t be tempted to buy anything that’s is dull or rusted with age..you will never be able to read that blade and understand it and getting a sword polished is a very expensive and time consuming business.

 

For the beginner a papered blade is best as this tells you the blade is what the seller is telling you and it will give you the being of the story of that sword, you will know the signature is real, who the smith is, school, age etc…this will give you a baseline as you study the blade and steel..you can read about the smith and school..how the constructed their swords…come to understand how he made his blades and then see that in your own blade…

 

so my honest advice would be to first get reference books and read…then look at the available blades in polish with a Hozen papers ( you don’t need to pay for any greater level) find a smith that has plenty written  about them as this will give you something to really get your teeth into….

 

many will say find out what you like and the smiths you may want to collect before buying..but actually you cannot do that…your first steps are about understanding and studying a blade you own…later after a few blades have past your eyes you may get to a point of I like smith A or school b and I will collect their works…but for your first blade..find a modest smith or school with plenty of references materials out there…get a polished blade so you can see all their is to see in the steel and make sure it’s got a Hozen paper so you know exactly what you are studying.

 

Of the three common blades..katana sized blades are the most popular and so most expensive…to be honest there is a reason…the  proportions of a katana are probably the most appealing to the eye of all the types of Japanese blades….wakizashi are somewhat cheaper and although they don’t have the presence of a katana they are still great for study and are a cost effective way of collecting a specific school when you get to that point…..Tanto are small about the same price as a wakizashi but are constructed in a very different way..personally I would say any collection should have examples of all three..but for your first piece you cannot beat owning a katakana that is in Polish, signed with a Hozen paper.