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What exactly do I have? I'm stumped!

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Onigoroshi Apprentice

Onigoroshi

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I have a very interesting wakizashi and only one person I showed it to in nearly 30 years of owning it seemed to know what it may be. It is a solid silver unsigned 39.5cm blade with elaborate fittings. I tested the blade with the ice test, the bleach test, and used a neodymium magnet for the slide test. The magnet slid down the blade at a slow speed when held at a 45 degree angle. Two notches are cut into the ha of the blade, and I'm unsure why. There is also a hamon visible. Seven Myoga kamon are all over the saya and also appear on both sides of the habaki. Some of the kamon on the saya appear maroonish red under the correct light, and some appear a dark blue. The habaki may be solid gold as it is quite heavy. The menuki appears to be copper and is threaded with a small ring on the male end. The kozuka is signed on both the blade and handle and the handle is decorated with a duck and gold decorations on one side and engraved with bamboo and what appears to be a silver disk (possibly a moon?) The tsuba appears to be iron with gold decorations. The fuchi and kashira are iron decorated with gold. The kashira also has what looks like a gold sun, and the fuchi has what appears to be a moon with a strange bluish type metal I can't identify. The tsuka it may be silk and is deteriorating rapidly. The same is mostly painted black. I would like to know if anyone can translate the writing and\ or tell me exactly what I may have. Thank you!

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Onigoroshi Apprentice

Onigoroshi

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11 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Looks like a metal Tsunagi to keep the fittings together, the notches look like they are meant for a display stand.

I thought this as well, but I've only ever seen tsunagi made of wood. Also, would a blade be displayed out of a saya?

Onigoroshi Apprentice

Onigoroshi

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8 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

What's that on the habaki, Oni?  A mon?

Yes, it appears to me a myoga ginger kamon. The same appears on the saya along with a wreathed myoga. I can't find any particular family that used the wreathed version or what it may mean. 

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Matsunoki Grand Master

Matsunoki

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6 hours ago, Onigoroshi said:

It is a solid silver unsigned 39.5cm blade

Have you actually done the acid test on the blade to confirm it’s silver? It would be very unusual to use silver for a tsunagi. Could be white bronze alloy. Also, not sure if you can actually get a hamon on silver…..can’t see how….nor on bronze for that matter. Is it a polishing effect? Any sign of nie or nioi?

The habaki looks superb….but the rest of the koshirae are pretty ordinary.

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Onigoroshi Apprentice

Onigoroshi

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1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Have you actually done the acid test on the blade to confirm it’s silver? It would be very unusual to use silver for a tsunagi. Could be white bronze alloy. Also, not sure if you can actually get a hamon on silver…..can’t see how….nor on bronze for that matter. Is it a polishing effect? Any sign of nie or nioi?

The habaki looks superb….but the rest of the koshirae are pretty ordinary.

I haven't done acid testing because I don't want to cause any more damage to the blade. The other 3 tests as well as visual inspection confirm it is silver. 

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Brian

Brian

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Personally, I think there is little to no chance it is silver. But easy enough to have a jeweller test it. Likely some alloy and was used as a filler to keep the parts together.
You'd have plenty of silver tarnish if it were silver, and there would be no point in making it solid silver. It's not a real blade, and the hamon is fake.
Nice fittings, I can see why someone put some effort into displaying them.

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Matsunoki Grand Master

Matsunoki

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1 hour ago, Onigoroshi said:

I haven't done acid testing because I don't want to cause any more damage to the blade. The other 3 tests as well as visual inspection confirm it is silver. 

The acid test involves a tiny spot, you could do it on the “nakago” end. It won’t damage it. The magnet test does not prove it’s silver. Nor does any ice test. Nor does any bleach test.

The hamon isn’t a real hamon and the nakago looks totally wrong. 

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Onigoroshi Apprentice

Onigoroshi

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9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks for the photo of the habaki, Oni.  Quite beautiful.

Thank you very much. I'm glad you appreciate it. 

 

12 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

The acid test involves a tiny spot, you could do it on the “nakago” end. It won’t damage it. The magnet test does not prove it’s silver. Nor does any ice test. Nor does any bleach test.

The hamon isn’t a real hamon and the nakago looks totally wrong. 

When researching non invasive ways to test silver, the magnet test, bleach test and ice test are what is recommended. Notice I said non invasive, since I have no idea exactly what I have and no one has ever seen anything like it. I didn't feel comfortable having nitric acid put on the blade if it is something special. I collect guns and have an original silver plated and engraved Henry rifle made in 1865 and a Winchester One of One Thousand. If you don't know much about guns, both rifles are worth upwards of $150,000 a piece and could bring as much as $225,000 a piece to the right buyer. I'm not new to caring for high end pieces, and doing something damaging to a piece that's special, like a Henry or One of One Thousand, even a small defect like a spot of rust or bluing missing could devalue the piece by thousands or ruin it. Hopefully with that explanation you understand why acid testing was never done. 

12 hours ago, Brian said:

Personally, I think there is little to no chance it is silver. But easy enough to have a jeweller test it. Likely some alloy and was used as a filler to keep the parts together.
You'd have plenty of silver tarnish if it were silver, and there would be no point in making it solid silver. It's not a real blade, and the hamon is fake.
Nice fittings, I can see why someone put some effort into displaying them.

There's no tarnish because I have used a silver polishing cloth to clean it once a year, just as you would use a uchiko ball and choji oil to clean a steel blade. The only place that is tarnished is where I dipped the nakagojiri in bleach to test it. Also keeping the blade in the saya with a tight fitting koiguchi won't allow it to tarnish easily. Air and humidity are enemies of silver. A neat little tidbit, the higher the silver content and the less copper content, the less it will tarnish. That's why .925 sterling silver tarnishes so easily, it has a higher copper content. 

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Matsunoki Grand Master

Matsunoki

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So, you’re happy to dip the nakago in bleach but not to put a minute spot of silver testing fluid on it which would tell you for sure whether it’s silver and leave no discernible trace especially if done on the nakago mune? Believe me what you have there is already so damaged that it will make no difference to it’s value (or rather lack thereof….unless it is silver in which case it’s bullion value)

The “blade” is not an “interesting wakizashi”, even if it was once a genuine Nihonto (which I doubt) it is now ruined…..

covered in abrasions with two large notches cut into it. However the nakago shape does not remotely look Japanese and it looks like someone has either made or adapted it to display the extremely fine looking habaki. The hamon on it is fake. Metalugically you cannot create a hamon on silver anyway.

The use of kamon on the saya is nothing exceptional and does not per se indicate quality. In late Edo and into Meiji the use of random Kamon on saya and other items became very common and cannot be reliably used to identify the actual owner. Many were made to sell to the tourists of the day.

The remaining koshirae components are nothing  at all exceptional.

The most interesting thing is that habaki…..have you had that tested? You could take that and the blade to a jeweller (as Brian suggested) and have him run it past his XRF Analyser. That’s noninvasive and you could proudly show us the results. You seem loath to accept that as solid advice but instead rely on totally unreliable tests to reach your conclusions.

As for boasting about the perceived value of your guns and how expert you are in looking after them…….we don’t usually do that on here. It’s vulgar.

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Onigoroshi Apprentice

Onigoroshi

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1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

So, you’re happy to dip the nakago in bleach but not to put a minute spot of silver testing fluid on it which would tell you for sure whether it’s silver and leave no discernible trace especially if done on the nakago mune? Believe me what you have there is already so damaged that it will make no difference to it’s value (or rather lack thereof….unless it is silver in which case it’s bullion value)

The “blade” is not an “interesting wakizashi”, even if it was once a genuine Nihonto (which I doubt) it is now ruined…..

covered in abrasions with two large notches cut into it. However the nakago shape does not remotely look Japanese and it looks like someone has either made or adapted it to display the extremely fine looking habaki. The hamon on it is fake. Metalugically you cannot create a hamon on silver anyway.

The use of kamon on the saya is nothing exceptional and does not per se indicate quality. In late Edo and into Meiji the use of random Kamon on saya and other items became very common and cannot be reliably used to identify the actual owner. Many were made to sell to the tourists of the day.

The remaining koshirae components are nothing  at all exceptional.

The most interesting thing is that habaki…..have you had that tested? You could take that and the blade to a jeweller (as Brian suggested) and have him run it past his XRF Analyser. That’s noninvasive and you could proudly show us the results. You seem loath to accept that as solid advice but instead rely on totally unreliable tests to reach your conclusions.

As for boasting about the perceived value of your guns and how expert you are in looking after them…….we don’t usually do that on here. It’s vulgar.

You seem to be the one who is being vulgar. I was simply explaining my reasoning for not doing an acid test. The surface tarnish produced by the bleach can be easily removed with a silver cleaning cloth. Nitric acid, sometimes, can not as it can etch the piece depending on its composition. I have tried to locate someone to do an XRF test on it, but I've yet to find anyone locally. Not every jeweler possesses an XRF machine that normally costs tens of thousands of dollars. Even portable ones aren't that common.

 

I was not "boasting" about the value of my collection, just illustrating that I'm not a novice to dealing with expensive\ high end items. I'm fully aware that one wrong move, whether cleaning a gun improperly and removing patina or touching a nihonto with your bare skin, can cause damage. As you so "eloquently" pointed out, the "worthless blade" has been damaged by a previous owner who didn't know what they were doing. I can't help what they did, but I can do my best not to cause more damage. I don't see why you take offense to that. You can do whatever you like to your possessions, but I choose to not make any hasty decisions until I know exactly what I'm dealing with and the repercussions if something goes wrong. Some mistakes can't be fixed.

 

I understand the kamon on the saya will most likely not help identity the original owners of the blade as many families used the Myoga as a crest, but the way the colors aren't visible unless under certain light, to me, is fascinating as I've never seen anything like that in the hundreds of nihonto I've seen. I apologize if it's not interesting enough for you to appreciate. 

 

For some reason, which I don't understand, you feel the need to go off on a tangent and denigrate and disparage everything about the blade and everything I've said, including describing this piece as being interesting, my methods of non invasive testing that's been used widely for testing silver, or my use of the term "hamon" to describe the edge pattern (which is the literal translation from Japanese to English of the word hamon) in the blade. I'm on here looking for helpful information, not to argue with someone. If you have nothing positive to say or information of value, please don't bother responding. 

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Brian

Brian

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Easy enough for any jeweller to do a rub and acid test. Will take seconds and tell you exactly what you need to know. And the rub is pretty much unnoticeable.
Of course if it's silver, then it has value for the metal alone. Still not going to add value to it as a Japanese sword, as it's not anything traditional or made by a smith. I'd say this has separate value to the blade and the koshirae, "silver" blades are nothing known or associated with Japanese swords.

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Franco D Experienced

Franco D

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Thoughts:

 

Solid silver?

Highly doubtful. Precious metals were/are precious and not used wastefully and splurged on a tsunagi.  

Silver plated, possibly, "if", then something probably done in more recent times. 

 

Saya/koshirae, if memory serves, perhaps, an Owari style koshirae. You can check/confirm with Sesko's Koshirae Taikan.

 

Ko-gatana, the mei looks possibly valid. Needs further research.

 

Kozuka, is it iron?, needs further evaluation. 

Can anyone read the kanji on it?

 

Habaki, yes, the habaki looks wonderful. Could we see images of the ends and inside? 

 

Close up pics of the fuchi/kashira?

 

Basically, this is a koshirae someone thought well enough of for preserving. 

 

If mine, I would try to discuss and learn more about it with an expert like Brian Tschernega.

Ask if he thought it was worth having him do restoration work.

 

Regards,

 

 

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French nihonto Collaborator

French nihonto

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I really doubt it's silver.
The simplest test would be to weigh it. Quite simply, silver has a much higher density than steel, aluminium, and so on. Weigh the blade, and you'll see straight away if it's silver or not. 

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Matsunoki Grand Master

Matsunoki

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37 minutes ago, French nihonto said:

Weigh the blade, and you'll see straight away if it's silver or not. 

Maxime, I’d be interested to know how that works. Ok the blade is weighed and let’s it’s say 1kg.

How does that tell us it’s silver?

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