Kenjō / Kyo-Kenjō tsuba and fittings

[Matsunoki]

Similar examples of mixed silver and gold nunome?

on one (imo)you can see where the silver has “bled” onto the iron as frequently happens on “komai” style tsuba

 

[Tcat]

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:19 PM, Matsunoki said:

Seriously…dragons, butterfly etc ..all gold originally?

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I'm not certain.. but theres a good chance yes.

 

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:19 PM, Matsunoki said:

So one fish is perfect gold, the one right next to it has lost 100% of the gold?

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Not lost it, its probably still there under the black oxidation.

 

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:19 PM, Matsunoki said:

The dragon and butterfly have very precisely lost 100% of their gold yet surrounding details escape unscathed.

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I'm not sure about this but I think the type of alloy has a significant effect on how the oxidation works; while only a light shade different when 'fresh', oxidizes a completely different colour. I'm not a metal artist so would like to get input from anyone with the knowledge. Knowing more about this I think would be a great way to recognize 'sleeper' fittings which could be restored.

 

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:19 PM, Matsunoki said:

To me those areas look exactly like old silver nunome that has simply tarnished. (The use of mixed silver and gold nunome on tsuba is not that unusual is it?)

 

Gold itself as we know does not tarnish so what technique/material (base and overlay)  are you suggesting was used to create the dragon, butterfly etc that facilitated such precise discolouring leaving no trace of the gold?

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Could be silver...could be both, could be gold. I don't know...I'm just leaning towards gold of a different shade. Nice examples of silver tarnish you posted above but I see no silver really in the tsuba we were discussing.

[Matsunoki]

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:32 PM, Tcat said:

Not lost it, its probably still there under the black oxidation.

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Afaik gold does not oxidise to black….or any other colour in normal atmospheric conditions. 

 

Be serious.

 

I’ve handled a great many items made by Komai and other artists using the komai techniques. Tsuba, boxes, kodansu, koro etc and where silver nunome was used it often looked exactly like the butterfly, dragon etc on the pieces in question especially if it hadn’t been cleaned. I have never seen gold oxidise to that colour, not  even low carat gold.

you sometimes see iron oxide that creeps over the edges of  both the gold and the silver nunome but it is totally obvious ……it looks like rust….its orange!

 

……so, it’s not so obvious is it?

[Tcat]

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:43 PM, Matsunoki said:

I’ve handled a great many items made by Komai and other artists using the komai techniques. Tsuba, boxes, kodansu, koro etc and where silver nunome was used it often looked exactly like the butterfly, dragon etc on the pieces in question especially if it hadn’t been cleaned. I have never seen gold oxidise to that colour, not  even low carat gold.

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Knowing what you know, looking at these images, closely mind you  tell me what do you see

 

[Matsunoki]

Sorry, I’m not bothering anymore. You are right.

 

[Tcat]

  On 2/22/2024 at 6:53 PM, Matsunoki said:

Sorry, I’m not bothering anymore. You are right.

 

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Covered in black oxidation and orange rust...but there is both gold and silver nunome underneath.

[Tcat]

After rust and oxidation were removed...

 

That's a pretty incredible transformation would you not agree. At first glance most people, even most collectors, would overlook the above blackened and rusted items without knowing what lies beneath. I believe this is part of the reason we dont see a lot of these koshirae..many are likely damaged.

[Matsunoki]

One last comment.

the orange encrustations are as you know rust that is erupting through a surface coating ie iron oxidisation

the black is almost certainly a thin coat of black urushi that has been applied  and you have successfully cleaned it off.

presumably the urushi was applied to protect the fittings from rust or to tone them down for aesthetic reasons

now I am gone

[Tcat]

  On 2/22/2024 at 8:23 PM, Matsunoki said:

the black is almost certainly a thin coat of black urushi that has been applied  and you have successfully cleaned it off.

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You're proably right, a lot of it is probably not metal oxide but blackned varnish / urushi. I didnt clean any of these parts by the way. I wonder if that is also urushi on the tsuba.

[Winchester]

This is an example I ran across the other day. Not sure if this is what you’re referring to but hope it helps.