Kenjō / Kyo-Kenjō tsuba and fittings

[Tcat]

Gentlemen,

I was wondering if anyone can produce photo examples of matching nunome work fittings by the Kenjō / Kyo-Kenjō artists. I'm mostly referring to the flat / hira inlay type seen here under Kenjo work - http://jameelcentre....ection/7/10237/10370 rather than the heavier more deeply inlayed work like Komai's dragons and clouds.

 

I am particularly looking for examples of F/K, kozuka and kogai or complete fittings which match the style of the images below, theres also a kurigata and kojiri but not pictured. I wonder if it is possible to pinpoint a school or some schools who did this kind of work, rather than the general 'Kyo-Kenjō' attribution.

 

None of the tsuba I can find in this style are signed, and I can find no other examples of similar F/K, kozuka, kokgai, kurigata, kojiiri etc online. I expect that far more tsuba were made in these shops than any other kind of sword fitting. The smoking samurai website is marvellous but so far I cant find a match.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Looks kind of űber Higo Zōgan-ish, with mythical creatures, Ryū, Hō-Ō and Kirin.

[Spartancrest]

https://www.lot-art....ba-10.11.18-catawiki

   the general 'Kyo-Kenjō' attribution. [not great image]

 

   https://www.willishe...-2015/lot-126-tsuba/

[Tcat]

2 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Looks kind of űber Higo Zōgan-ish, with mythical creatures, Ryū, Hō-Ō and Kirin.

 

I was wondering what that creature was... I thought it could be a fox as in the above example posted by Dale. Good to know. There's a similar one to the above on ebay with the double wire thread vines and phoenix. I have yet to find any other fittings aside from tsuba in this style...

[Tcat]

37 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

   https://www.willishe...-2015/lot-126-tsuba/

This one is fairly similar but has the double vines. I include another example below, hamidashi tsuba.

[Matsunoki]

19 hours ago, Tcat said:

rather than the heavier more deeply inlayed work like Komai's dragons and clouds.

Komai work is not inlaid. It is done in nunome zogan ie gold/silver foil pressed onto a finely cross hatched base. To my eye none of the images above feature true inlay. All looks nunome.

”Nunome Zogan means cloth weave overlay and uses very thin foils - 0.02mm thick and the gold is attached to the base metal by creating a cross-hatched ground made with chisels. Around 7 - 9 chisel marks per mm created in three different directions at 45 degrees to each other”

[Tcat]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Komai work is not inlaid.

Are you thinking of later Komai work? I I was referring in particular to this style below which is made by Komai and surely includes inlay.

 

 

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

To my eye none of the images above feature true inlay. All looks nunome.

Agree, except for the double vines which I believe could be inlayed but am not sure.

[Matsunoki]

41 minutes ago, Tcat said:

Are you thinking of later Komai work? I I was referring in particular to this style below which is made by Komai and surely includes inlay.

Hi Alex, no I’m not thinking of just later Komai work, I was just looking at the images. You would need powerful magnification to look at the iron surface to see if you could spot the incredibly fine cross hatching that is used to bond the gold/silver. My money is on nunome🙂

I have this modest example……it’s all nunome although at first glance you’d perhaps say some inlay?

 

[Tcat]

8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

I have this modest example……it’s all nunome although at first glance you’d perhaps say some inlay?

That’s a beautiful example and thank you for posting. The work on your example is all nunome. I think the Komai example I posted above is not. See the thickness of the body of the dragon? I believe this mass of metal won’t adhere correctly with just the nunome crosshatching technique.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Tcat said:

See the thickness of the body of the dragon? I believe this mass of metal won’t adhere correctly with just the nunome crosshatching technique.

Is this the dragon you mean? If so nunome is more than capable of covering that surface area. Have a look at where I circle in red. You can see gold missing in small areas. Do you see evidence of inlay ie a hollow or carved out area?

If I’ve got the wrong dragon please point the correct one out. Also, different thicknesses of foil were used.

 

[Tcat]

29 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Is this the dragon you mean?

 

No sorry, youve got the wrong dragon, I was referring to the Komai dragons and clouds I posted above. See the thickness of the metal used for the body of the dragon, I dont think this will adhere correctly with nunome crosshatching alone.

 

All of the images I have shared, aside from the Komai dragons and clouds, use nunome.

 

I am looking for examples of kodogu other than tsuba which carry the same or similar theme and style of execution.

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I have this modest example……it’s all nunome although at first glance you’d perhaps say some inlay?

Not so modest IMHO  

 

How about the Kao? Is that inlay or nunome as well?

[Matsunoki]

10 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

How about the Kao? Is that inlay or nunome as well?

Hi Dale

100% the Kao is just nunome. Under strong magnification you can see the cross hatching peeking out from around the gold. The whole area of the Kao has been hatched and the Kao simply applied onto it. Many people don’t believe that this thickness of gold which looks very “solid” is actually heavy nunome…..but it is. 
Tap the image …..hopefully you can see it.

[Matsunoki]

19 hours ago, Tcat said:

I believe this mass of metal won’t adhere correctly with just the nunome crosshatching technique.

Have a look at the closeup above of the Kao on the tsuba I posted. Nunome can be used to create a such a thick effect.

[Tcat]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Have a look at the closeup above of the Kao on the tsuba I posted. Nunome can be used to create a such a thick effect.

That’s a great closeup and lovely kao. I commented earlier that I think all the work on your tsuba appears to be nunome. I think I haven't been clear enough so I’ll include some additional closeups below. Here is a kozuka with the same theme:

 

 

If we take a closer look we can see four sizes/gradients of gold used to create the design. I number them from smallest to largest to illustrate:

 

 

It was always my belief that 1 and 2 are nunome while 3 is punched and inlayed, and 4 is channel carved and inlayed.
 

You will notice that the nunome crosshatching which is quite visible under macro does not extend into those areas with the thicker gold “lines”. It was of my understanding that they don’t need to, because those parts are inlayed. I am open to the idea that I am completely misunderstanding the manufacturing process however…

 

[Matsunoki]

Good observation, I can see what you mean. I guess they used both techniques. Honestly…..I’ve never looked as closely as this before🙂 Do you think it possible that on these thicker strands of gold there is a “hump” of iron underneath and it’s still nunome over that? I’d love to see an area where a bit has come off or out! If it is narrow inlay it’s amazing that we don’t see bits that have fallen out especially on heavy handling objects like tsuba and Kozuka.

[Matsunoki]

 

I mean to say I think the “fox” on the first tsuba actually looks closer to how the Japanese depict their wolves. Search for “wolf netsuke” and you’ll see why I think so. Japan had 2 species of wolves until the early 20thC .

 

[Tcat]

22 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Good observation, I can see what you mean. I guess they used both techniques. Honestly…..I’ve never looked as closely as this before🙂 Do you think it possible that on these thicker strands of gold there is a “hump” of iron underneath and it’s still nunome over that? I’d love to see an area where a bit has come off or out! If it is narrow inlay it’s amazing that we don’t see bits that have fallen out especially on heavy handling objects like tsuba and Kozuka.

 

Ah-ha...humps. In this case no I dont think so. Not iron anyway, but on more worn examples of Kyo-Kenjo tsuba I have seen what looks like a sort of wide copper wire inlay exposed underneath where thicker parts of the nunome used to be. An example would be the ho-o birds' tails in the first tsuba I posted, which I suspect uses the same method to improve adherance. Keep in mind that inlay of any kind is still likely to last longer than nunome when it comes to handling. Which is another reason why I suspect we dont see many Kyo-Kenjo koshirea.  Great info about the wolves. Will have a look.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

13 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

100% the Kao is just nunome.

Wow, very thick for nunome, you would think it was more susceptible to damage being that high but being under the seppa I suppose protects it.  [I would go crazy just cutting all the lines in the iron to start with!]

[Tcat]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:50 AM, Matsunoki said:

I’d love to see an area where a bit has come off or out! If it is narrow inlay it’s amazing that we don’t see bits that have fallen out especially on heavy handling objects like tsuba and Kozuka.

 

Found an example of it here...so judging by this construction I belive there to be a considerable amount of 'true inlay' used to create a better base for adhesion with other mixed/soft metals.

 

[Matsunoki]

@Tcat

Hmmmmm, I’m not so sure. It appears that there is indeed copper inlay but absolutely no evidence that any of it had gold nunome applied on top. It looks like two totally different techniques to me especially on the “flower/bud” bottom right on your example. And if it was used to create a better base for nunome adhesion I’d say it’s failed miserably. Nope, I’m not convinced.

I even wonder if the “copper” (if that’s what it is) is also applied using the nunome technique. Cannot see why not if it’s thin enough and softened.

Edited February 22 by Matsunoki
Added tcat

[Tcat]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

@Tcat

It appears that there is indeed copper inlay but absolutely no evidence that any of it had gold nunome applied on top.

 

The evidence is there for all to see on the other side of the same tsuba that Dale posted earlier in the thread... 

Here it is again in detail...pretty obvious the example above also had gold nunome on it which wore off.

 

 

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

@Tcat

And if it was used to create a better base for nunome adhesion I’d say it’s failed miserably. Nope, I’m not convinced.

I even wonder if the “copper” (if that’s what it is) is also applied using the nunome technique. Cannot see why not if it’s thin enough and softened.

 

According to the current generation of pro metalworking artists, this was a method used to improve results because gold tends to adhere to copper better than it does to steel using this technique...I remember Ford mentioning it at some point.

[Matsunoki]

17 minutes ago, Tcat said:

used to improve results because gold tends to adhere to copper better than it does to steel using this technique

Then please explain why the gold is well adhered to the iron but apparently totally lost from the copper with no trace remaining whatsoever….see the two areas circled in red

Anway, seems only you and me care🙂

[Tcat]

8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Then please explain why the gold is well adhered to the iron but apparently totally lost from the copper with no trace remaining whatsoever….see the two areas circled in red

 

Quite elementary - becuase over the years it was damaged by oxidizing corrosion - iron oxide/rust and copper acetate/verdigris. The tsuba has been 'cleaned' since then, the oxides have been removed and subsequently there has been loss of materials.

 

14 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Anway, seems only you and me care🙂

 

Short-sighted take I believe. NMB is an awesome research tool and I often read posts here 15+ years old. People will be able to witness your unwillingness to accept the obvious for years to come 

 

[Winchester]

Thunder...Thunder...Thunder Cats...Whoa!!! LOL Haven't thought about that cartoon since I was a kid Tcat, thanks for the memory. 

 

If it would be of interest and relative to your original post, I have seen F/K in this style with 'only the vine(s)' present. If this is of value or interest, please let me know and I'll dig some examples up within the next 24 hours. 

 

My guess is you're looking for examples with more robust design/details; that is, including the other elements shown initially?

[Matsunoki]

35 minutes ago, Tcat said:

The tsuba has been 'cleaned' since then, the oxides have been removed and subsequently there has been loss of materials.

Doesn’t look remotely cleaned to me. The shakudo and silver nunome look exactly as I’d expect them to look….ie untouched, or are you now going to suggest they have been subsequently repatinated? Or just the areas that suit your argument have been cleaned?

I’m well aware of the value of the forum.…..and I’m not unwilling to accept the obvious, I’m just unwilling to accept all that you say when a lot of it is not actually obvious. 
If you look very closely at the detail on the one Dale posted I believe you will see the fine lines in question are a subtle different colour to the remainder of the gold. (See red outlined) These also correspond to the areas where the nunome appears to be missing. Possibly a different alloy of gold? Possibly a different alloy altogether? Again, I like facts, not opinions. 
However you obviously don’t like your opinions being challenged and instead resort to …..

 

35 minutes ago, Tcat said:

People will be able to witness your unwillingness to accept the obvious for years to come

 

[Matsunoki]

Also compare the area outlined in red to that outlined in green. Would you argue the green area has also lost its nunome from what appears to be the same technique but in a silver “inlay” that to my mind also looks like it never had nunome on it? It looks like the artist used the same technique and design within both the red and green highlights….ie thins lines in a different material that never had nunome in them. There is absolutely no trace of residual gold overlay.

Your theory of oxidisation followed by cleaning makes no sense to me.

 

[Tcat]

43 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Thunder...Thunder...Thunder Cats...Whoa!!! LOL Haven't thought about that cartoon since I was a kid Tcat, thanks for the memory. 

 

If it would be of interest and relative to your original post, I have seen F/K in this style with 'only the vine(s)' present. If this is of value or interest, please let me know and I'll dig some examples up within the next 24 hours. 

 

My guess is you're looking for examples with more robust design/details; that is, including the other elements shown initially?

 

If they look like they fall into of Kenjo style fittings heck yea post 'em up. There are all kinds of vines on fittings... Hey if that gave you a kick, head over to youtube and rewatch the intro in HD. If it doesnt get your blood pumping youre already dead. PS. The sword of omens is a ken, change my mind.

[Tcat]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Doesn’t look remotely cleaned to me. The shakudo and silver nunome look exactly as I’d expect them to look….ie untouched, or are you now going to suggest they have been subsequently repatinated? Or just the areas that suit your argument have been cleaned?

 

Cleaning doesnt require repatination...these two are separate exercises. I don't think there has been any repatination on this tsuba.

 

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

If you look very closely at the detail on the one Dale posted I believe you will see the fine lines in question are a subtle different colour to the remainder of the gold. (See red outlined) These also correspond to the areas where the nunome appears to be missing. Possibly a different alloy of gold? Possibly a different alloy altogether? Again, I like facts, not opinions. 

You noticed the reddish tint to the three gold areas with the red outline so I hope you will also notice that the two on the left are redder, because more of the gold has worn away here, perhaps from fingers reaching for the kogai. In the red circle on the right you will see its yellower, because you're not seeing so much copper showing through the worn areas.

 

49 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Also compare the area outlined in red to that outlined in green. Would you argue the green area has also lost its nunome from what appears to be the same technique but in a silver “inlay” that to my mind also looks like it never had nunome on it? It looks like the artist used the same technique and design within both the red and green highlights….ie thins lines in a different material that never had nunome in them. There is absolutely no trace of residual gold overlay.

Your theory of oxidisation followed by cleaning makes no sense to me.

 

 

The areas marked in the green and red cicles above I believe are/were not silver or shakudo or copper colour when the tsuba was produced but gold. Unfortunately black oxidation has taken over what was once a 'gold' colour of a different hue to what remains yellow now. I think only the umigane has always been shakudo...not 100 percent on that though. When I say I think it's been cleaned I say that in a relatively loose sense. There's still plenty of oxidation remaining, the dragon, the fish, the leaves etc. likely should all be gold.

[Matsunoki]

14 minutes ago, Tcat said:

There's still plenty of oxidation remaining, the dragon, the fish, the leaves etc. likely should all be gold.

Seriously…dragons, butterfly etc ..all gold originally?
So one fish is perfect gold, the one right next to it has lost 100% of the gold?

The dragon and butterfly have very precisely lost 100% of their gold yet surrounding details escape unscathed.

 

To me those areas look exactly like old silver nunome that has simply tarnished. (The use of mixed silver and gold nunome on tsuba is not that unusual is it?)

 

Gold itself as we know does not tarnish so what technique/material (base and overlay)  are you suggesting was used to create the dragon, butterfly etc that facilitated such precise discolouring leaving no trace of the gold?