Could someone help me identify this sword

[DannoTheManno]

Hi there guys, I won this sword in an auction and I just want to see if someone could help me identify it, there are artistic like engravings on the blade which are a little hard to see because of the rust, there is still a small edge on the blade itself near the handle (could've cut myself). I wanted to also ask if anyone could tell me on how I could take off the handle, either if they could link a video from someone on YouTube or make try to explain, and also would anyone know the best way to get rid of the rust, I don't want to use any wire brushes as I'd think that could scratch the blade (I don't know I'm just guessing). If you guys got any questions, I'd happily answer. Thanks for the help in advance.

[Kmad]

Hi Dan,

I saw this at auction in Shepard's and wondered what it is, looking forward to finding out all about it  I was guessing Chinese, but not a modern piece.

Keep well,

Ken, Kildare Based collector

[DannoTheManno]

Yeah it was from Shepard's, looked interesting so I got it. Hoping someone can tell me more about it, especially how to take off the handle as I got no clue, if it is Chinese then oh well but if it is real then pretty great

12 minutes ago, Kmad said:

Hi Dan,

I saw this at auction in Shepard's and wondered what it is, looking forward to finding out all about it  I was guessing Chinese, but not a modern piece.

Keep well,

Ken, Kildare Based collector

 

[DannoTheManno]

also pretty sure the pin that holds the handle is under the wrap, would I have to cut the threads and take off the wrap to be able to take off the handle?

 

[Kmad]

I would think old Chinese but people who know a whole lot more will chime in soon 

I like your pictures better than Shepard's and might have bid on it

You are in the correct forum to find out what it is either way,

Regards

Ken 

 

[dwmc]

Hello Dan,

Your sword appears to be an Indonesian (Island sword), probably wwll era or earlier. I suspect the handle is attached by some type of adhesive rather than a peg and would be damaged in an attempt to remove it. (I seriously doubt there would be inscription on the tang). Any type of rust removal product would be ok to use. These so called "Island swords" show up occasionally and are definitely not Japanese but are somewhat interesting nevertheless. I'm sure others will share their opinions...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

[DannoTheManno]

14 minutes ago, dwmc said:

Hello Dan,

Your sword appears to be an Indonesian (Island sword), probably wwll era or earlier. I suspect the handle is attached by some type of adhesive rather than a peg and would be damaged in an attempt to remove it. (I seriously doubt there would be inscription on the tang). Any type of rust removal product would be ok to use. These so called "Island swords" show up occasionally and are definitely not Japanese but are somewhat interesting nevertheless. I'm sure others will share their opinions...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

Thanks for the reply, I took off the handle and I'd say its either what you said or Chinese copy as I haven't see a katana with this type of tang

[dwmc]

1 hour ago, DannoTheManno said:

Thanks for the reply, I took off the handle and I'd say its either what you said or Chinese copy as I haven't see a katana with this type of tang

 Interesting, a peg hole after all! Hope you didn't damage it in the process of removal. I would still maintain it is not Chinese but Island Sword as the tang is rather crude and lacks inscription. However , others may have a different opinion.

 

Dave M.

[DannoTheManno]

55 minutes ago, dwmc said:

 Interesting, a peg hole after all! Hope you didn't damage it in the process of removal. I would still maintain it is not Chinese but Island Sword as the tang is rather crude and lacks inscription. However , others may have a different opinion.

 

Dave M.

I didnt damage the leather itself (not sure if it even is that) I just cut the threads, there is a missing spacer/seppa and because I am not bothered at this point to buy one I am just designing and 3d printing one, after that I will just sew it back together

[Stephen]

Not a Fantasy island sword, it's a Chinese copy.....not old.

[Bruce Pennington]

I don't know what it is, but it's not Japanese.  We have an automatic tendency, not undeserved, to call these Chinese fakes.  I have done so many times.  Yet, the occupied territories had their own sword industry during the war, for their own people.  Both fake and island swords are so poorly made, it is often impossible to know the difference.

 

I have never seen an attempt at horimono on either fake or island swords.  So this is a new one on me.

 

What do you say Trystan, @BANGBANGSAN?

[DannoTheManno]

8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I don't know what it is, but it's not Japanese.  We have an automatic tendency, not undeserved, to call these Chinese fakes.  I have done so many times.  Yet, the occupied territories had their own sword industry during the war, for their own people.  Both fake and island swords are so poorly made, it is often impossible to know the difference.

 

I have never seen an attempt at horimono on either fake or island swords.  So this is a new one on me.

 

What do you say Trystan, @BANGBANGSAN?

Here is a closer look at the engraving/horimono, if this fake like Stephen says then oh well but if turns out to be something else then even better

[Bruce Pennington]

Again, unique in that the artwork is chiseled in, rather than cut out.  I don't study horimono, so I could be wrong, but I've never seen someone draw horimono that way.  More work than you would expect from a faker factory.  But, who knows.

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, DannoTheManno said:

Here is a closer look at the engraving/horimono, if this fake like Stephen says then oh well but if turns out to be something else then even better

DTM do you think that's a good horimono? 😆  more like horrorimono!

[Brian]

THIS is a horimono.
I don't know what that is....but it certainly isn't Japanese.

 

[DannoTheManno]

ah well too bad its fake, still a nice display piece in my opinion when I get rid off the rust, maybe one day I'll be able to get a proper real one, kinda hard to find in ireland outside of rare auctions unless from outside the country but im not sure if they'd get through customs

 

[dwmc]

Dan, I don't know if your sword could be considered a fake. As I mentioned others would have a definite opinion. Stephen and the others have studied Japanese swords for many years and are quite expert. It seems when your type of sword shows up occasionally, it goes automatically to the Chinese fake category, which may be perfectly true.

For some reason it seems true Nihonto enthusiast are repulsed by your particular type sword. The term Island sword is a bit of a misnomer and is sometimes loosely used to describe what may possibly be a crude sword made in one of the Island chains Indonesia, etc.

These swords have been kicked around many times on the board with some very convincing debates from all sides. In reality we will probably never know the origin of your sword.  I myself am a bit perplexed by these crude (whatever they are) and curious as to who would take the time to pound out something attempting to resemble Japanese type sword.

Probably unrealistic but maybe try and follow it back to previous owners for info...

 

Tryston (@Bangbangsan) may have idea of what your sword is, he seems to have knowledge of the non-Japanese swords...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

 

 

[DannoTheManno]

8 minutes ago, dwmc said:

Dan, I don't know if your sword could be considered a fake. As I mentioned others would have a definite opinion. Stephen and the others have studied Japanese swords for many years and are quite expert. It seems when your type of sword shows up occasionally, it goes automatically to the Chinese fake category, which may be perfectly true.

For some reason it seems true Nihonto enthusiast are repulsed by your particular type sword. The term Island sword is a bit of a misnomer and is sometimes loosely used to describe what may possibly be a crude sword made in one of the Island chains Indonesia, etc.

These swords have been kicked around many times on the board with some very convincing debates from all sides. In reality we will probably never know the origin of your sword.  I myself am a bit perplexed by these crude (whatever they are) and curious as to who would take the time to pound out something attempting to resemble Japanese type sword.

Probably unrealistic but maybe try and follow it back to previous owners for info...

 

Tryston (@Bangbangsan) may have idea of what your sword is, he seems to have knowledge of the non-Japanese swords...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

 

 

thanks for the reply @dwmc, I totally get why people say this and automatically class it as fake(which it could very well be or this island sword definition), I'll try contacting @BANGBANGSAN and see what he says, with trying to contact the previous owner would probably be slightly difficult as I got it through an auction and I doubt the auctioneer would divulge me the contact information, but I might as well leave my information with the auctioneer to see if the previous owner could contact me (which isnt a bad idea), thanks again

[Kmad]

Hi Daniel,

I collect Ethnic swords and I think what you have is a nice interesting genuine piece, just not Japanese.

When I said Chinese in my previous post I meant an Old Chinese genuine piece, I was going to bid on it myself but purchases some other items before the Shepards auction and changed my mind on bidding.

I have an interest in Japanese swords and I presently have 3 swords and 1 Tanto all purchases in Ireland and only 1 at auction, the Tanto.

If you look at my previous threads you will see what I have found!

Keep well and maybe our paths will cross sometime I sent a PM if you want to reach out .

Regards

Ken 

[Stephen]

It wasn't all that long ago when something other than true nihonto was posted instructions were given to show on the Sword Forum,  luckily for you young'ens Brian is much more tolerably in his old age.

 

[DannoTheManno]

@Stephen look I just wanted help, to fully understand what it is. Ok I get it, it's a Chinese knockoff copy, I'm sorry I asked. Thanks for the help though.

[Stephen]

It's a cool wall hanger, better to have that stolen and not something valuable. 

[GeorgeLuucas]

With blades like this, of mystery origin and questionable craftsmanship, my first step would be trying to determine if it’s a functional sword. 
 

If it’s an unhardened strip of metal, then it’s almost certainly a fake

 

If it’s hardened steel and full tang, then maybe it’s a real sword from somewhere 

Outside my expertise and focus, so grain of salt and all that…

 

my gut says fake, but I’m prepared to be wrong.

-Sam 

 

 

 

[Kiipu]

Hi Daniel, welcome to the forum.  I always like it when these swords make an appearance.  They are thought provoking and divisive at the same time.

 

Best case scenario, a wartime "tourist" sword, like the dagger my father bought in Karachi, India, in 1944.  Worst case scenario, it was made some twenty to thirty years ago in China.  Who is right, only you can determine as you have it in hand.  All we can do is provide a learned opinion.

 

No matter what, I like it and am glad you shared pictures of it.  All the best and hope to hear from you down the road.

[PNSSHOGUN]

7 hours ago, DannoTheManno said:

ah well too bad its fake, still a nice display piece in my opinion when I get rid off the rust, maybe one day I'll be able to get a proper real one, kinda hard to find in ireland outside of rare auctions unless from outside the country but im not sure if they'd get through customs

 

Dan we are certainly at opposing ends of the definition of "nice display piece".....

[Bugyotsuji]

The feeling I get from it is strongly redolent of the IJA. Possibly the leader of a troop of Indonesians, remembering their training, carried this locally-made sword with pride through their four-year independence movement following withdrawal of most of the Japanese at the end of WW2.

[BANGBANGSAN]

 

@Bruce Pennington

 

This sword is intriguing; it appears old. It might be wartime Chōsen/Korean-made rather than a Chinese knockoff, but I'm not sure though. The handle of a Korean sword is generally a bit shorter and thicker than that of a Japanese sword, and the blade is somewhat straighter compared to a Japanese sword. The engravings on the blade of a Korean sword are mostly in intaglio, while on Japanese swords, the characters are typically in intaglio, and the designs are often in relief. I'll share a few pictures of Korean swords for everyone to reference.

Here are some Videos about Korean Hwando and Japanese sword

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The handle of a Korean sword is generally a bit shorter and thicker than that of a Japanese sword, and the blade is somewhat straighter compared to a Japanese sword

This sword does seem to fit this description.  Thanks Trystan!