Opinion on sword?

[Ilovekatana]

I found this sword online and wonder if it would be worth getting? Also what should I spend for it? Note it is not papered.

[Ilovekatana]

Here are some additional images

[Ilovekatana]

Here is one more

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Joseph "loves KATANA",

if it was indeed by the big "O SA", it would have papers and cost something. 

https://www.ricecrac...sa/878_tanto_sa.html

https://www.aoijapan.net/tanto-there-is-signature-左-sa/

If you like it (perhaps GIMEI, but good quality) and fits into your price range, buy the blade, not the MEI!

[Ilovekatana]

  On 2/6/2024 at 6:05 PM, ROKUJURO said:

Hi Joseph "loves KATANA" (no plural 'S'),

if it was indeed by the big "O SA", it would have papers and cost something. 

https://www.ricecrac...sa/878_tanto_sa.html

https://www.aoijapan.net/tanto-there-is-signature-左-sa/

If you like it (perhaps GIMEI, but good quality) and fits into your price range, buy the blade, not the MEI!

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I mostly want it for the blade. Also out of curiosity do have any idea what era it might be if possible?

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think it does not look really old or at least in the pictures it looks like the blade is healthy without the typical strong tapering that old blades show from many polishes where the blade starts. 

[ROKUJURO]

I think the TANTO tries to look old, especially the NAKAGO. But as Chris points out correctly, the blade seems to be very healthy inspite of the purported age; the MACHI are still very apparent.  
SA(MONJI) was one of the 10 MASAMUNE pupils and worked from the end of KAMAKURA JIDAI through the early NANBOKUCHO era, so if this TANTO was indeed by him you would expect some material loss from polishing.

But as I said above, if you like the blade and it is affordable, why not? Age is not at all important, but quality is!
 

[Ilovekatana]

  On 2/6/2024 at 11:05 PM, ROKUJURO said:

I think the TANTO tries to look old, especially the NAKAGO. But as Chris points out correctly, the blade seems to be very healthy inspite of the purported age; the MACHI are still very apparent.  
SA(MONJI) was one of the 10 MASAMUNE pupils and worked from the end of KAMAKURA JIDAI through the early NANBOKUCHO era, so if this TANTO was indeed by him you would expect some material loss from polishing.

But as I said above, if you like the blade and it is affordable, why not? Age is not at all important, but quality is!
 

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I have had a goal of getting a nanbokucho soshu work if I can. Its part of the reason why age is important to me. 

[Geraint]

  Quote

I have had a goal of getting a nanbokucho soshu work if I can. Its part of the reason why age is important to me. 

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So do many others which is why gimei is such a strong possibility.  

 

Options:

Would you be happy with something that you can tell yourself is Nambokucho Soshu but deep down you know that everyone you share it with will give you that sympathetic glance?  If so then this is the one!

Would you rather put in the hard hours so that you recognise Soshu  and don't need to ask ?  Then this is not the one.

Would you like to spend the money and buy into Nambokucho Soshu with certainty by buying a polished and papered example?  Then this is not the one.

 

Do your studies tell you that this is a Nambokucho period tanto?  Is it coming from Japan and if so why does it not have papers when the simplest thing to do would be to submit and confirm?

 

Enjoy the journey!

 

All the best.

 

[Ilovekatana]

  On 2/7/2024 at 12:21 AM, Geraint said:

So do many others which is why gimei is such a strong possibility.  

 

Options:

Would you be happy with something that you can tell yourself is Nambokucho Soshu but deep down you know that everyone you share it with will give you that sympathetic glance?  If so then this is the one!

Would you rather put in the hard hours so that you recognise Soshu  and don't need to ask ?  Then this is not the one.

Would you like to spend the money and buy into Nambokucho Soshu with certainty by buying a polished and papered example?  Then this is not the one.

 

Do your studies tell you that this is a Nambokucho period tanto?  Is it coming from Japan and if so why does it not have papers when the simplest thing to do would be to submit and confirm?

 

Enjoy the journey!

 

All the best.

 

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Thank you for the tip. I think I'll wait until a papered Nanbokucho Soshu pops up at my price range.

[Steveagain]

I owned a signed katana by "Sa." It was gimei of course but that didn't detract from the beauty of the blade. That happened a lot! People gifted swords and the more famous the signature? The better gift it made. *shrug* As far as I know? Sa never actually made a blade that long. Still. It's old and precious. Who cares who first made it? She's awesome.

[Tanegashima]

The mei is scratchy and poorly cut, definitely gimei.

[Kanenaga]

OK to tell us where you saw this?

[ROKUJURO]

  On 2/20/2024 at 6:55 AM, Tanegashima said:

The mei is scratchy and poorly cut, definitely gimei.

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Nigel,

I cannot share your opinion. It looks like an old MEI, and many have not been cut deeply. In addition to that, you cannot derive a judgement if SHOSHIIN or GIMEI from the condition of a signature alone. Some smiths had indeed a bad 'hand-writing'.

[Alex A]

To me, judging by the nakago it looks old, not Shinshinto.

 

Ana appear old and the varying surface to the nakago appears genuine. From what ive seen of most Shinshinto trying to be Koto, they never pull it off that good.

 

Cant really tell from those images but looks to be Mitsu Mune, so taking that in plus the hada etc id be looking to see if it fits a shortened Muromachi Shimada sword or any others.

 

Good luck with your research and possible purchase.

[Matsunoki]

  On 2/20/2024 at 6:55 AM, Tanegashima said:

The mei is scratchy and poorly cut, definitely gimei.

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You say definitely…..evidence?…..or just your opinion?

[Matsunoki]

@Ilovekatana

please can we see an image of the full length of the nakago looking down on the mune?

To my old eyes the lower portion of the nakago does look pretty old…..be interesting to see if the nakago kasane varies along it’s length

 

Also looking at the nakago overall it looks machi okuri and to me there is clear evidence of reshaping to create especially a new hamachi. You can see the tapering. You can also see fresh yasurimei on the mune below the mune machi. I’d say the nakago has had a lot of reworking.

Just opinions…..probably worthless🙂…..but I like to try and actually see rather than just look.

Edited February 22, 2024 by Matsunoki
Added second para after fresh look

[Shugyosha]

  On 2/20/2024 at 6:55 AM, Tanegashima said:

The mei is scratchy and poorly cut, definitely gimei.

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Hi Nigel,

Lots of signatures on koto blades are scratchy and poorly cut - pretty much any signature on any Bizen blade from the Muromachi period will look like this. One opinion I've read was that it was done this way to avoid work-hardening the tangs but it's not conclusive of being gimei by itself.

[Ilovekatana]

  On 2/21/2024 at 11:45 PM, Kanenaga said:

OK to tell us where you saw this?

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Heres a link to where I found it: https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1123713228

[Ilovekatana]

  On 2/22/2024 at 8:54 AM, Matsunoki said:

@Ilovekatana

please can we see an image of the full length of the nakago looking down on the mune?

To my old eyes the lower portion of the nakago does look pretty old…..be interesting to see if the nakago kasane varies along it’s length

 

Also looking at the nakago overall it looks machi okuri and to me there is clear evidence of reshaping to create especially a new hamachi. You can see the tapering. You can also see fresh yasurimei on the mune below the mune machi. I’d say the nakago has had a lot of reworking.

Just opinions…..probably worthless🙂…..but I like to try and actually see rather than just look.

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I don't have access to the sword and the online auction I found it at has ended.