Koshirae design/theme ideas.

Avidmark · February 5

Forgive me if this is in the wrong section, not sure if it should have posted in the “Kosogu” section.
I’m looking to get information about how Koshirae is put together for a blade in regards to design or theme. I have a katana in shirasaya coming from Japan I would like to slowly piece together Koshirae for.
I’d like to gather things like tsuba, menuki, fuchi, kashira etc individually but have the tsuka and saya made professionally.

So two questions. Is it most appropriate to have period correct fittings to the era the blade was made, or at least period correct style but new fittings? For instance is it faux pas to have and Edo blade with Koto style fittings?

Second question, how do you develop a theme for what fitttings to get? Should they all match with texture, color, animal, flowers etc. Or is a theme even necessary?

Kind of a hard question to ask Google.
Any books recommended for this?

Thanks.

Grey Doffin · February 5

Hi Mark,

Books could be written to answer your questions; it is a complicated subject. The task you've set yourself is large if not ponderous; it is one often taken up by beginners and far less often by seasoned collectors. If you study and stick to it you will succeed and, when the time comes to sell (it will), you'll have little trouble recouping a quarter of what you spend (other collectors will be looking for antique Japanese koshirae, not modern (except for work done by modern masters)).

There is another option for you: https://www.Japanese...possibly-higo-sweet/

Cheers, Grey

Mikaveli · February 5

I think koshirae has almost always been a matter of personal choice / preference.

Whether koto fittings are ok on a shinto, remember the shingunto military swords had koshirae based on Kamakura-era tachi...

Personally, if I had an ubu tachi, I'd use tachi mounts. But any katana / suriage tachi from Muromachi onwards - go with whatever look you want to see. 💪

George KN · February 5

My humble opinion as a novice collector is that so long as no harm is being done to the blade, then what fittings you want to use is a matter purely of personal taste. As I understand, people have often changed the koshirae to fit the times and their own desires, and as caretakers of these historic objects, we can also be part of that tradition (and maybe in a few hundred years time someone will be having a very similar debate over whether they should be removing a 21st century tsuba from an 18th century sword :laughing: )

This thread does raise an interesting and related question I've had since I've been collecting though - is it ever acceptable to have new holes made in an antique katana to fit a particular antique tsuka? And if not (and I understand this would heavily devalue an ubu sword), doesn't that make finding antique koshirae that fits a particular sword almost a game of chance? (especially when buying online).

Avidmark · February 5

27 minutes ago, Ghoul414 said:

My humble opinion as a novice collector is that so long as no harm is being done to the blade, then what fittings you want to use is a matter purely of personal taste. As I understand, people have often changed the koshirae to fit the times and their own desires, and as caretakers of these historic objects, we can also be part of that tradition (and maybe in a few hundred years time someone will be having a very similar debate over whether they should be removing a 21st century tsuba from an 18th century sword )

This thread does raise an interesting and related question I've had since I've been collecting though - is it ever acceptable to have new holes made in an antique katana to fit a particular antique tsuka? And if not (and I understand this would heavily devalue an ubu sword), doesn't that make finding antique koshirae that fits a particular sword almost a game of chance? (especially when buying online).

My plan is to acquire (separately) antique tsuba, fuchi, and kashira.
Tsuka and saya (and I assume seppa and hibaki) I would like to commission someone to make to fit the blade so it’s not altered.

Avidmark · February 5

Are Tsuba and fuchi Kashira all standard sizes? There are a few tsuba I have my eye one and wonder how much alteration is needed. For the tsuba, copper I believe is hammered in to take up extra space for the nakago? Would the tsuka need to be made based on the size of the fuchi and kashira?

Mikaveli · February 5

1 hour ago, Avidmark said:

Are Tsuba and fuchi Kashira all standard sizes? There are a few tsuba I have my eye one and wonder how much alteration is needed. For the tsuba, copper I believe is hammered in to take up extra space for the nakago? Would the tsuka need to be made based on the size of the fuchi and kashira?

Ish.

I wouldn't modify a tsuba to fit - but it's easy to make a bamboo or brass spacer to take up any slack.

Fuchi / kashira wise - typically these are given to the tsuka maker, who can incorporate them (without any modification).

Mikaveli · February 5

1 hour ago, Ghoul414 said:

This thread does raise an interesting and related question I've had since I've been collecting though - is it ever acceptable to have new holes made in an antique katana to fit a particular antique tsuka? And if not (and I understand this would heavily devalue an ubu sword), doesn't that make finding antique koshirae that fits a particular sword almost a game of chance? (especially when buying online).

For me, I'd say that's an absolute no-no.

Any non-essential, irreversible modification damedesu!

It'd certainly affect the value. I've seen listings where damage from marking the ana when removing the mekugi pin has been called out.

OceanoNox · February 6

5 hours ago, Avidmark said:

Are Tsuba and fuchi Kashira all standard sizes? There are a few tsuba I have my eye one and wonder how much alteration is needed. For the tsuba, copper I believe is hammered in to take up extra space for the nakago? Would the tsuka need to be made based on the size of the fuchi and kashira?

It depends on the style (Kaga, Higo, and Owari styles have the kashira a bit smaller than the fuchi). They are made in pairs

The tsuka itself has different styles (Hakata, etc.) where the tsuka is either straight, slightly curved, or a bit thinner in the middle. Since shape and size vary also with era, the overall balance must be taken into account.

Menuki orientation depends on what they represent: omote should have males and ura should have females, with the male/omote side facing towards the blade.

I have cited before an academic paper that described how the tosogu were chosen: either the same theme for all but with variations in shape and numbers, or a theme that will be inferred from all the depictions on each tosogu, or a "story" that can be read by looking around the koshirae (刀装具のかざりの構造 by 宮崎友見子).

If you get all antique fittings, you could play with the seppa style and thickness to ensure a nice transition between tsuba and fuchi.

Franco D · February 6

12 hours ago, Avidmark said:

I’m looking to get information about how Koshirae is put together for a blade in regards to design or theme. I have a katana in shirasaya coming from Japan I would like to slowly piece together Koshirae for.

Quick thoughts;

First, building a proper koshirae requires expertise to end up with a believable result while avoiding making sometimes costly mistakes. Even then, in the end it will be a Mark C production.

Secondly, if you must, since you will be hiring a professional to make the saya and tsuka, it would be wise to have that professional guide you through the entire process. Be prepared, it will require time, patience, and a significant budget depending upon the quality sought.

Third, after all is said and done, experience suggests finding a quality original samurai koshirae and be done with it.

Regards,

2devnul · February 6

Hi,

I can only share my humble opinion on this. I have 2 historic blades with restored (new wood, Samegawa, Tsuka-ito) Koshirae:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45103-shinto-wakizashi-hizen-kuni-mutsu-kami-tadayoshi-please-comment/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45588-shinto-wakizashi-hojoji-sadahiro-please-comment/

1. Any Koshirae set that has no papers is a composition of fittings from different sets.

2. When I was composing mine, I was focusing on them to be from same era (fittings) and to fit same theme/color/story.

3. My swords are from early EDO period, but fittings are from late EDO. I don't think it is a big mistake as Koshirae was changed even by original sword owners. Legends say that wealthy Samurai (or Merchants) would even change Koshirae depending on occasion. Same way we pick watches these days.

4. I would NOT use old Saya (even if it 'fits') on a blade for which it wasn't made for (scratches).

5. Tsuba/Fuchi/Kashira usually can be perfectly fit (proper adjustments) by Koshirae maker.

6. Don't count that Koshirae will boost the price while selling the sword. Usually it makes difference only to amateur collectors. If you want to get more money then it is better to sell fittings/Koshirae separately.

I hope this helps. Please note that above comments are just my personal opinion.

Brian · February 6

Fuchi/Kashira should match. Tsuba is nice if it matches and can be done. Otherwise plain iron maybe. Menuki...rarely. Nice if you can find a kojiri and or kurikata and or kojiri that match, but that is usually higher end.

Avidmark · February 6

So these four Tsuba are what I’m narrowed down to (unless something else comes up) and the overall look will revolve around which one I decide on.
In general I’m not a flashy person. I like subtle details in most things and don’t want the Koshirae to have a fancy presence.

http://bushidojapane...27_Sakura_Tsuba.html

https://www.aoijapan...ubamumeiunsigned-12/

https://www.aoijapan...ubamumeiunsigned-46/

https://www.aoijapan...mumei-chrysanthemum/

Avidmark · February 7

18 hours ago, Franco D said:

Quick thoughts;

First, building a proper koshirae requires expertise to end up with a believable result while avoiding making sometimes costly mistakes. Even then, in the end it will be a Mark C production.

Secondly, if you must, since you will be hiring a professional to make the saya and tsuka, it would be wise to have that professional guide you through the entire process. Be prepared, it will require time, patience, and a significant budget depending upon the quality sought.

Third, after all is said and done, experience suggests finding a quality original samurai koshirae and be done with it.

Regards,

Could you elaborate on your third point.
Do you mean sourcing an existing complete Koshirae, or do you mean assembling the type of Koshirae a samurai would have for combat as opposed to the type a wealthy merchant would have.

Franco D · February 7

6 hours ago, Avidmark said:

Could you elaborate on your third point.
Do you mean sourcing an existing complete Koshirae,

Yes.

Original true samurai (not merchant) koshirae can be found. Dealers can be very helpful.

This is not to say that a quality merchant koshirae is something to sneeze at.

Regards,

Avidmark · February 7

6 hours ago, Franco D said:

Yes.

Original true samurai (not merchant) koshirae can be found. Dealers can be very helpful.

This is not to say that a quality merchant koshirae is something to sneeze at.

Regards,

I’m trying to find out what differences there are between the two. Is it as simple as a merchant katana being more complex and ornate? Was there any decoration at all to a samurai katana Koshirae or were they as plain as possible?

DoTanuki yokai · February 7

Merchants weren’t allowed to wear Katana so this problem is more a Wakizashi problem.

Franco D · February 7

4 hours ago, Avidmark said:

I’m trying to find out what differences there are between the two. Is it as simple as a merchant katana being more complex and ornate? Was there any decoration at all to a samurai katana Koshirae or were they as plain as possible?

Much depended upon the taste (and budget) of the samurai (or merchant) is what I would say from having limited knowledge. I've definitely seen a range from more basic to very ornate and fancy. Something subtle can at the same time be fancy without being flashy, if that makes sense.

Taste!

Even though merchants were only allowed wakizashi, sometimes you'll see katana length "merchant" koshirae/saya. Tsk, tsk!

Markus Sesko offers "Koshirae Taikan" and "Koshirae En" , recommend adding these to your library.

Regards,

Avidmark · February 7

12 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Much depended upon the taste (and budget) of the samurai (or merchant) is what I would say from having limited knowledge. I've definitely seen a range from more basic to very ornate and fancy. Something subtle can at the same time be fancy without being flashy, if that makes sense.

Taste!

Although merchants were only allowed wakizashi, sometimes you'll see katana length "merchant" koshirae/saya.

Markus Sesko offers "Koshirae Taikan" and "Koshirae En" , recommend adding these to your library.

Regards,

I was literally just eyeing that book on Amazon.

Interesting bit about a merchant choosing a katana length saya for a wakizashi. “Fashion over function” as they say lol.

Franco D · February 7

11 minutes ago, Avidmark said:

I was literally just eyeing that book on Amazon.

Have pdf downloads of both, not hard copies. Which allows you to play with the images. Microsoft even offers "Read Aloud" now.

16 minutes ago, Avidmark said:

Interesting bit about a merchant choosing a katana length saya for a wakizashi. “Fashion over function” as they say lol.

Have sometimes wondered about just how risky it might have been for a merchant drawing attention to oneself in this way.

Regards,

Avidmark · February 7

3 hours ago, Franco D said:

Have pdf downloads of both, not hard copies. Which allows you to play with the images. Microsoft even offers "Read Aloud" now.

Have sometimes wondered about just how risky it might have been for a merchant drawing attention to oneself in this way.

Regards,

Looking at it from a modern perspective, one could make the comparison of a civilian wearing a military special operations unit patch.

Mikaveli · February 7

I'm not sure about all the sword laws, but according to Sesko, it wasn't until 1668 when the Tokugawa-bakufu issued the muto-rei, restricting non-samurai to (ko)wakizashi. So until then, merchants could have fairly long swords.

Avidmark · February 7

15 hours ago, Franco D said:

Yes.

Original true samurai (not merchant) koshirae can be found. Dealers can be very helpful.

This is not to say that a quality merchant koshirae is something to sneeze at.

Regards,

In regards to sourcing the koshirae, wouldn’t the saya need to be custom built for the blade I have? What are the chances it matches the dimensions and curvature? Not to mention if the saya is dirty inside.

nulldevice · February 7

10 minutes ago, Avidmark said:

In regards to sourcing the koshirae, wouldn’t the saya need to be custom built for the blade I have? What are the chances it matches the dimensions and curvature? Not to mention if the saya is dirty inside.

If you’re commissioning a koshirae, a new saya should be part of the build. Every sword is unique in its dimensions and the saya is built to match the blade.

Franco D · February 8

5 hours ago, Mikaveli said:

I'm not sure about all the sword laws, but according to Sesko, it wasn't until 1668 when the Tokugawa-bakufu issued the muto-rei, restricting non-samurai to (ko)wakizashi. So until then, merchants could have fairly long swords.

This might explain seeing an older sword in uncommonly fancy koshirae.

2devnul · February 9

On 2/7/2024 at 6:04 PM, DoTanuki yokai said:

Merchants weren’t allowed to wear Katana so this problem is more a Wakizashi problem.

On 2/8/2024 at 12:17 AM, Mikaveli said:

I'm not sure about all the sword laws, but according to Sesko, it wasn't until 1668 when the Tokugawa-bakufu issued the muto-rei, restricting non-samurai to (ko)wakizashi. So until then, merchants could have fairly long swords.

Well, according to Wikipedia it was other way around. Toyotomi Hideyoshi restricted access to weapons for none-samurai. However, during Tokugawa (EDO) that restriction was lifted.

Still, Wikipedia could be totally wrong. For example Seki Sensei from YT also stated that Katana (during EDO) was restricted only to nobility.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_hunt

In 1588, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, having become kampaku or "imperial regent", ordered a new sword hunt;^[3] Hideyoshi, like Oda, sought to solidify separations in the class structure, denying commoners weapons while allowing them to the nobility, the samurai class.

The Tokugawa shogunate did not confiscate swords from farmers and townspeople, who could continue to wear daisho until 1683. Many would keep wearing wakizashi on a daily basis after then. After the middle of the 18th century, they were still worn during special events such as travel, weddings, and funerals. This lasted until the Meiji Restoration.

Mikaveli · February 9

Ha ha, well, I'll take the word of Markus Sesko over Wikipedia any day...

For example, on the Wakizashi page it states 1638 (citing the Connoisseurs Book of Japanese swords) as the time when social groups were restricted in what swords they can wear:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi

I'm assuming 1683 is a typo of 1638, and that 1638 was when non-samurai were prohibited from wearing daisho. The Wikipedia page you linked to cites no references, so without a more primary source, this seems most likely.

In 1668, the muto-rei, that's when the length of the wakizashi was restricted to that of ko-wakizashi. Before that, non-samurai could wear o-wakizashi (if I'm interpreting it correctly).

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