Looking for any/all info possible for this sword!

[Stockfball11]

Looking to get any and all info about this sword that was given to me by my grandfather. Please let me know if any further photos are needed. I tried to be as thorough as possible and provide as much detail as possible. Thank you! 

[Ray Singer]

From what I can see:

 

Mei: Bishu Osafune Sukesada saku

Dated: Tenbun ni ju nen ju gatsu hi 

 

Made by Sukesada in Osafune village Bizen province. 

 

A day in the 10th month of 1551. 

 

 

[Stockfball11]

8 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

From what I can see:

 

Mei: Bishu Osafune Sukesada saku

Dated: Tenbun ni ju nen ju gatsu hi 

 

 

Awesome! Thank you! Received it from my grandfather and know nothing about swords at all. Going to try and find somewhere to take it to have it looked at in person as well I think. 

[Bruce Pennington]

The older blade is in WWII Type 98 Japanese officer fittings.  You can read about them here:

Army commissioned officers Shin-Guntō (Type 98 Guntō) 1938 (ohmura-study.net)

 

The silver, round piece on the end of the handle is a kamon, or family crest.  There are guys here who can give you an idea of the list of families known to use this crest.

[Ray Singer]

20 minutes ago, Stockfball11 said:

Awesome! Thank you! Received it from my grandfather and know nothing about swords at all. Going to try and find somewhere to take it to have it looked at in person as well I think. 

 

Please also note not to do anything on your own to polish the blade or remove rust, especially on the tang (nakago) which should retain its current dark appearance. Also avoid touching the polished part of the blade with bare fingers, just keep the blade oiled to preserve the condition. This is a very nice piece and is worth submitting for papers at some point in the future. 

[Stockfball11]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The older blade is in WWII Type 98 Japanese officer fittings.  You can read about them here:

Army commissioned officers Shin-Guntō (Type 98 Guntō) 1938 (ohmura-study.net)

 

The silver, round piece on the end of the handle is a kamon, or family crest.  There are guys here who can give you an idea of the list of families known to use this crest.

After looking through that site, it most definitely appears to be the WWIII Type 98 fitting! Looks dang near identical! Definitely makes it more intriguing! Thank you so much 

[Stockfball11]

8 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

 

Please also note not to do anything on your own to polish the blade or remove rust, especially on the tang (nakago) which should retain its current dark appearance. Also avoid touching the polished part of the blade with bare fingers, just keep the blade oiled to preserve the condition. This is a very nice piece and is worth submitting for papers at some point in the future. 

I would never think to try and do any kind of work to it myself and handle it very little and don’t touch the blade when I do. And can you shed more light on what you mean by papers? I would love to get formal paperwork on it. 

[Ray Singer]

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/origami.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

It was fairly common for guys to have their family blades re-fitted for the war.  The kamon may be evidence of this in the case of this sword.  However there was quite a program by the government and military to get families to donate or sell their old blades for the war effort.  The officer in your case could have bought his sword from a shop that had obtained the old blade and fitted it out for the war.

 

Here is an article explaining the program  -  Converting family swords into Gunto

 

Here is a page on sword care: Japanese SWORD CARE (japaneseswordindex.com)

[PNSSHOGUN]

This is a good quality sword, the mounts are the better quality pre-WWII style. Did your grandfather serve in WWII? It's important to record any history behind it as these details can be lost to time very quickly.

[Stockfball11]

9 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

This is a good quality sword, the mounts are the better quality pre-WWII style. Did your grandfather serve in WWII? It's important to record any history behind it as these details can be lost to time very quickly.

He did indeed serve in WWII. He’s passed now so don’t have too many more details. All I have is a guess as to where he was/what campaigns he was in based on what he wrote on the back of his duty holster that I have. 

[Stockfball11]

23 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/origami.htm

Incredible. Thank you! 

[PNSSHOGUN]

That's very special, would any other family members know?

[Bruce Pennington]

Hm.  European theatre.  Now it's even more mysterious how he came upon a Japanese sword!  Same thing with my Dad's Mantetsu.  He was in the Marines after Korea.  I never asked him how he got his sword.  Just assumed he won it in a poker game or some such thing.

[Franco]

Good quality signed and dated Muromachi-Koto period nihonto are quite collectible. A sword that is ubu with bo-hi makes it even more so. 

The owner of such a blade who intends to keep it would be wise to learn how to properly handle and care for such a sword http://www.jssus.org/articles/7.html , as well as begin building a library to learn about their sword. 

Whenever in doubt about anything, please ask!

 

This sword appears to be in overall good condition. However, if I may so, red rust anywhere on a Japanese sword should be considered active and needs to be properly addressed. Suggest researching the topic of rust and using oil on the nakago. 

 

As far as seeking papers/origami is concerned, shinsa is available in Japan of course and there are periodically shinsa held here in the states. 

https://nihontocraft...hinsa_Standards.html

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

[Stockfball11]

16 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

That's very special, would any other family members know?

Since he’s my grandfather I’m not allowed to request his military file. I’m going to see if my dad can submit for it shortly. 

[Winchester]

Andrew, this sword is a stunner and the history documented on the holster; truly remarkable. Please continue to ask any and all questions you may have here. 

 

Ignore any offers or requests that you may receive online or in person, not that it is for sale, but if you are seeking info. online, there is always a chance that someone will try to make you an offer that may sound good, but nowhere near its' worth.

 

Thank you for sharing.

[George KN]

Just chipping in to say that that looks like a beautiful sword, in good condition, and what an awesome thing for your grandfather to have left for future generations!!

 

I'm also particularly amazed by the holster - funnily enough my own grandad also served in the African and Italian campaigns of WW2, but as part of the British 8th Army - but the only things I have are his medals, a wartime album, and a bucket load of unanswered questions.

 

 

 

Any ideas what you plan to do with the sword next? I noticed you had already made a thread about it in 2020:

 

 

[Stockfball11]

3 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

Just chipping in to say that that looks like a beautiful sword, in good condition, and what an awesome thing for your grandfather to have left for future generations!!

 

I'm also particularly amazed by the holster - funnily enough my own grandad also served in the African and Italian campaigns of WW2, but as part of the British 8th Army - but the only things I have are his medals, a wartime album, and a bucket load of unanswered questions.

 

 

 

Any ideas what you plan to do with the sword next? I noticed you had already made a thread about it in 2020:

 

 

Plan on keeping it forever. It’ll never leave my family that’s for sure! Would love to send it to Japan to get looked at. Been trying to figure out how 

[Stockfball11]

3 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

Just chipping in to say that that looks like a beautiful sword, in good condition, and what an awesome thing for your grandfather to have left for future generations!!

 

I'm also particularly amazed by the holster - funnily enough my own grandad also served in the African and Italian campaigns of WW2, but as part of the British 8th Army - but the only things I have are his medals, a wartime album, and a bucket load of unanswered questions.

 

 

 

Any ideas what you plan to do with the sword next? I noticed you had already made a thread about it in 2020:

 

 

Pretty awesome historic photos! And what a cool thing to see they were in the same campaigns and for all we know may have crossed paths! 

[Stockfball11]

5 hours ago, Winchester said:

Andrew, this sword is a stunner and the history documented on the holster; truly remarkable. Please continue to ask any and all questions you may have here. 

 

Ignore any offers or requests that you may receive online or in person, not that it is for sale, but if you are seeking info. online, there is always a chance that someone will try to make you an offer that may sound good, but nowhere near its' worth.

 

Thank you for sharing.

I have definitely received interested parties in my messages to try and buy it. I didn’t even respond. I have no interest in ever moving the sword out of my family. It’ll be with me til I have children of my own and pass it on to them! 
 

Only real question I’ve been having after trying to figure out myself and failing is how I go about actually completing the process of sending it for Nihonto Origami (forgive me if that’s not the correct terminology). I’ve been reading all about it but haven’t been able to actually figure out how to do it. 

[SteveM]

You get in touch with an agent in Japan who can handle the process. Someone like Robert Hughes (see below). 

 

He has to import the blade and get it legally registered in Japan. Then he has to reserve a spot in the next shinsa. Then, after shinsa, he has to collect the sword and get an export permit it so that he can send it back to you. If you have any detailed question, he can help you out. 

 

 

[Stockfball11]

6 hours ago, SteveM said:

You get in touch with an agent in Japan who can handle the process. Someone like Robert Hughes (see below). 

 

He has to import the blade and get it legally registered in Japan. Then he has to reserve a spot in the next shinsa. Then, after shinsa, he has to collect the sword and get an export permit it so that he can send it back to you. If you have any detailed question, he can help you out. 

 

 

This has definitely given me the most clarity so far on how it works! Thank you!

[Stockfball11]

I have reached out on here to the above mentioned Robert Hughes. If anyone else has information regarding a dealer to help with the import/nihonto origami process it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! 

[Stephen]

Andy may I ask why you want to send it to Japan?

 

IMHO it would really serve no purpose,  for that price you could take it to a sword show that's going to have a shinsa. If you want to check it's mei, but if they fail it that would kinda taint it Imo

 

I'd have to check events forum to see which one Is having a shinsa. 

 

So happy to hear your respecting your Gpa Legacy. 

Please keep us in the loop these stories are what a few of us old timers going. 

 

[Stephen]

June in Orlando not a terrible long drive.

 

 

 

[Stockfball11]

5 hours ago, Stephen said:

Andy may I ask why you want to send it to Japan?

 

IMHO it would really serve no purpose,  for that price you could take it to a sword show that's going to have a shinsa. If you want to check it's mei, but if they fail it that would kinda taint it Imo

 

I'd have to check events forum to see which one Is having a shinsa. 

 

So happy to hear your respecting your Gpa Legacy. 

Please keep us in the loop these stories are what a few of us old timers going. 

 

Only reason is pure ignorance evidently. I hear people talk about having it sent there to get official paperwork for it. Did not know it was something even possible to do state side. I figured that was the one and only truly legit way to get it done. 

[Stephen]

Do lots more reading Andy it's a long adventure,  tons of info on the board.

Enjoy your time here.

[Winchester]

Stephen brought up a good idea. If you are able to make it to the Orlando show this summer, you could start the process there and would presumably not need to send it abroad.

[Franco]

9 hours ago, Winchester said:

Stephen brought up a good idea. If you are able to make it to the Orlando show this summer, you could start the process there and would presumably not need to send it abroad.

  

Expanding on this thought.

Since your sword is signed (versus mumei), the shinsa team should be able to give you a definitive answer and confirmation of the sword and signature's validity. Attending a show/shinsa can be a very good learning experience, especially if the show offers educational venues such as a meibutsu display where you might be able to view other Bizen swords.

 

Regards,