When is Suriage acceptable?

[Avidmark]

I found a previous thread interesting and had asked this question without realizing how heated the thread got. Realizing that thread may have left a bad taste in some people’s mouths I assume it will go unnoticed.
So I’ll make a new thread if that’s appropriate. 

My question is, why would a blade made in the Edo era be shortened after it was made? I could see an older blade from a different era needing to be shortened due to a change in combat settings (open battlefield vs city and indoors), and changing regulations as to length allowed by government guidelines. Is a shortened blade acceptable if it was shortened during a transition like I mentioned? 
Or, would it be as simple as the sword changing hands and it’s simply too long for the new owner? Or was it an attempt to remove a defect? If this is the case, aren’t most defects in the blade, and not the nakago?

[Nihonto student]

Dear Mark,

 

my 2 cent:

 

In collector terms

Suriage/Machi-okuri it is generally accepted for koto blades especially from the Kamakura and Nambokucho periods as many of these blades were shortened in the Muromachi period due to the change in fighting style which preferred the short blade to the long one, consequently the Ubu blades of such periods can acquire great value because it is a great plus. For Shinto blades in general, being shortened is a big handicap in terms of value and saleability.
However, what I have said must be put in relation to other factors, therefore each situation must be evaluated individually on how much a shortening affects the actual value of the blade.

 

Your question

there may be various explanations and points of view, but they are difficult to prove.
Personally I think there are 2 main reasons:
- Forgeries to make the blade look older
- New owner who prefers a different balance or who needs a shorter blade due to physical physiognomy

Personally I don't think it's to hide flaws in the nakago but with this I don't mean to say that it has never happened, simply that cases can be different like fatalities in life so I prefer to express the two cases that for me statistically tend to repeat themselves more frequently

 

Regards,

Giordy

 

[Stephen]

On 1/27/2024 at 12:36 PM, Avidmark said:

 

I found a previous thread interesting and had asked this question without realizing how heated the thread got. Realizing that thread may have left a bad taste in some people’s mouths I assume it will go unnoticed.
So I’ll make a new thread if that’s appropriate. 

My question is, why would a blade made in the Edo era be shortened after it was made? I could see an older blade from a different era needing to be shortened due to a change in combat settings (open battlefield vs city and indoors), and changing regulations as to length allowed by government guidelines. Is a shortened blade acceptable if it was shortened during a transition like I mentioned? 
Or, would it be as simple as the sword changing hands and it’s simply too long for the new owner? Or was it an attempt to remove a defect? If this is the case, aren’t most defects in the blade, and not the nakago?

The black out again, please for those in dark theme when you copy n paste there's a option to click as plain text

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think it is just a matter of collecting preferences and budget. Not everyone can collect at the same level, nor do they want to even follow the commonly advised approach.

 

For example you could have a shortened Edo period blade in good condition vs. long original length blade by same smith in worse condition. Your preferences would be a deciding factor if you would choose one over another blade.

[Vermithrax16]

Age and use in time passed usually will dictate suriage.  Especially to stuff into gunto mounts. Or shorten a long early Koto sword for non horseback applications. Modern uses can be to fit a beloved koshirae or maybe remit a bad spot on nakago. I prefer shirasaya so it's not ever a consideration.

[Rivkin]

.... when you don't have the funds to buy ubu signed pieces.

Blades were shortened or altered even in 20th century to fit the military koshirae.

[Avidmark]

Ok, I have a better understanding about this topic now. Appreciate it. 
Complicated stuff. Not only am I learning about the nuances about Japanese swords, I’m learning about the nuances of collecting Japanese swords.