Gendaito gimei in general

[Aloof Pegasus]

A little while back there was a post which raised the point that some J officers were not above putting a mon on their gunto rig to make everybody think they came from a Samurai family.

 

In that case I s'pose there also must have been a slew of gimei gendaito/showato swords around that time for the same reason, patriotic/good luck gesture.

 

Is that right?

 

Philip

[SwordGuyJoe]

While I am sure there are quite a few gi-mei gendaito/showato blades out there, I am not sure I understand your question. Are you implying these gi-samurai ( ) would apply a mei of gendai smiths or shinshinto, shinto, etc.? I would think that they would apply the mei of an older smith if at all, but I would also think that they would be smart enough to know the newly applied mei would stand out significantly on a shinto blade, as well as a mumei gendai blade marked with an important shinto smith's name would stand out as just much.

 

I think that these days in the states, there are pockets of people who are knowledgeable about swords - I think we are in the pocket. However, in pre-WWII Japan, there were many who were knowledgeable, as it was a pretty considerable industry. I would think these not-quite-samurai would be wasting their time trying to apply a mei. I would think these folks would be the ones being taken in by a counterfeiter, but who knows? You could be right

[Aloof Pegasus]

Hi Joe,

 

I was just trying to think about it from the point of view of some J soldier off to war with his first or grandfather's or whatever sword. Perhaps a relative paid to have a name put on the sword to give it more kudos- not meant to fool anyone by doing so. In that period it may have been a patriotic gesture to put a smith's name on a sword that was going to war. I'm just speculating here and asking for more informed input. It may even have been tongue in cheek.

 

By any chance do you any know of any written accounts about the prewar era when someone recalled such an event happening. Much as the origin for the spurious mon-gunto detail must have come from some such recollection.

 

Thanks your help

 

Regards

Philip

[george trotter]

This is an interesting question.

I haven't seen gimei gendaito blades in WWII gunto koshirae but I have seen gimei shinto-shinshinto blades in gunto koshirae...these gimei were done long before WWII though. What I can say is over the years I have seen a number of Meiji-Taisho-Showa blades with "famous" signatures...obviously "gimei", but also obviously not intended to deceive anyone. These all had rather gaudy jindachi or efu no tachi or handachi koshirae. The mei I remember included Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke, Suishishi Masahide and Masayo, Kotetsu etc, etc. These were true nihonto, but, despite the period of the mei (swordsmiths working era) they all looked Taisho-Showa in length and shape etc. In one case, a Japanese sword buyer was here in Australia (1970's) and when offered a pair of swords consisting of a "gimei" Taisho or Showa era Kotetsu in brilliant vermillion jindachi koshirae, and a Showa gendaito in gunto koshirae by Endo Okimitsu, he bought the Kotetsu but said he couldn't take the Okimitsu back into Japan (then). At least it shows that these "gimei" gendaito were nihonto.

As to the reason they are made I can only say that two of these gimei I know of were presented to two coastal town councils here in Western Australia in appreciation of help and/or support to visiting official Japanese parties (one Naval). In this case, I think it probable that the Japanese wished to convey that the assistance received was worthy of such a fabulous gift, but of course, they couldn't give out the real thing. I think therefore that in those pre-war days, these swords were made as gifts. If such gimei are found in Showa gunto koshirae, it MAY be that friends/family are wishing him a similar excellence in a sword as a mark of respect, but can't obtain the real thing. A Japanese recipient would understand and appreciate such a gift.

 

Hope this helps,

George Trotter.

[Bazza]

G'day All,

In my early days of collecting it was very exciting to (a) find a sword and buy it, (b) translate the mei all by oneself and © find the smith was a pre-1868 man in Hawley's books, subsequently realising in some cases that it was a Showato in disguise. The first one such was a Mondo no Sho Masakiyo with aoi mon. However, the blade looked "funny". I eventually concluded it was a Showato (not a Gendaito) and passed it on. I also found another sword with a Shinto maker "in the books" that was also a Showato. Then there was a sword with a mei to a Koto Mino Kanekado that the owner had allegedly been offered a car for!!! Another obvious Showato. Friends have seen other swords of this kind. With a reasonable number of such found in our small part of the world my conclusion at that time was that these swords were indeed gimei intended to deceive. I hadn't thought that they might be regarded as "patriotic" with everyone in on the act, so I guess the jury is still out on the question???

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[george trotter]

Hi Barry,

your observations are interesting...were the swords you mention in gunto koshirae? If yes...I wonder if they come under the category of not intended to deceive/patriotic gift ? If not...were they mounted like I described? It's interesting that I haven't seen gunto mounted gendaito or showato gimei swords...of course, your population is much larger than ours...more swords. The answer may still be out there Baz.

Regards,

George.

[Aloof Pegasus]

George, that was a really interesting post.

 

One other idea: My J gf's grandfather, born in Meiji, recieved a sword as a present from somebody.

 

He was sent to Manchuko but he didn't take the sword with him, he left it at home. Instead he took a purpose-bought gendaito to China. Subsequently his older swords were hidden by his family when the army began collecting household metal etc for the war effort. They (and he) survived the war.

 

I suppose it's possible that in that situation if the sword he didn't take had had a mei then he might have had the same mei put on the sword that did go to war? She doesn't have that kind of info, but will see if I can dig something else up for the discussion from other family members who might remember.

 

Regards

 

Philip

[george trotter]

Hi Philip,

yes, an interesting topic. It is hard to understand gimei other than fraud...but these other examples make it difficult to pass a judgement. Right now, on another thread about a tachi mei, Moriyama san has translated a well known Meiji swordmakers mei, but it is including "Fujiwara", whereas the genuine mei is thought to have always signed "Minamoto"...so it is a deliberate signpost that the mei/sword is not genuine...why make a false signature then deliberately put a warning sign on it? It must be that the purpose was to imitate, not to defraud?

I would be interested to know if your ancestor had a sword made and SIGNED "to order".

Regards,

George.

[David Flynn]

I have seen a wartime produced Gimei Gendai. It was submitted to the Sydney shinsa where it pinked. Whether or not it was originally in a gunto mount, I cannot say.

This sword was supposedly a Takahashi Sadatsugu.

[Aloof Pegasus]

Hello David

 

You made it home safe and sound then?

 

I don't s'pose you remember if it was wildly off or a close call?

 

 

Philip

 

ps The Sadatsugu mei I meant not the return leg

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

I remember hearing that Innami Hakusui wrote many origami that were blatant gimei and untrustworthy during the war and also during the subsequent occupation. It was said that he felt unable to tell the young officer that the "Masamune" (or whatever) that he was carrying was a gimei as the soldier was heading for almost certain death and that to disabuse him was too cruel and might also undermine his confidence and patriotic feelings. Maybe his motives to the occupying GI's were not quite so pure.

Regards

Clive (survived DTI) Sinclaire

[Eric H]

So Tsutomu is a gendai-tosho with a great reputation, a most likely fake is now on Ebay.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/J299-Japanese-Samur ... 283wt_1076

 

The O-Kogatana offered for sale here on the board gave the chance to compare the signatures. The mei on the Ebay Katana is poorly done and differs markedly from the shoshin ones.

Eric

[David Flynn]

Hi Philip, yes I made it home in one piece, thank you.

The "Sadatsuga", wasn't close. I believe I actually saw it before the shinsa and commented to Adrian about being not the quality one would expect from Sadatsugu.