Thoughts On First Nihonto (Nanbokucho)

Rivkin · February 9

It gets difficult to comment since there is a competing interest, but frankly it just does not look exciting as a blade. Nakago can be tolerated in something old, this is likely early Muromachi, but overall there is just not much.

Schneeds · February 26

On 2/9/2024 at 1:19 PM, Rivkin said:

It gets difficult to comment since there is a competing interest, but frankly it just does not look exciting as a blade. Nakago can be tolerated in something old, this is likely early Muromachi, but overall there is just not much.

I've found myself coming back to this blade a number of times recently; I'm curious what your thoughts would be. Judged Naoe Shizu, 70cm. When I compare it to other Naoe Shizu works I can find it looks like a fine example. Is this pretty typical work for the School, or an above average example? I came across a comment from Ray recently where he mentioned he likes to take the seller pictures from perspective purchase swords and work with them in photoshop to make sure nothing is being missed and I thought that was an excellent idea given the quality of photography varies so wildly. I worked with these a bit as the seller's images were a bit lacking. As always, thank you for your input.

Rivkin · February 26

It looks like a nice blade. Naoe Shizu has a "bad" reputation because it can be Muromachi, but its one of exceptions where mumei blades can definitely get TH and go Juyo, so its kind of judged by Nanbokucho principles, same as Oei Hasebe and a few other schools.

I think sue-Sa is another possible attribution here, hamon is a bit more nie heavy on top, which is often seen in west Japan's schools like Sa or Naotsuna, while Naoe Shizu tends to be more harsh, larger nie throughout the entire hamon, also with more prominent masame. But one sees it in Naoe Shizu now and then as well and overall the attribution appears solid.

On the negative hamon here comes out a bit soft since it lacks prominent sunagashi etc.

Jigane is good.

If it would have stronger nie in hamon definitely Juyo grade, though such statements are very subjective. As is, can still be an attractive blade. Feels like the earliest Muromachi.

Schneeds · February 27

9 hours ago, Rivkin said:

If it would have stronger nie in hamon definitely Juyo grade, though such statements are very subjective. As is, can still be an attractive blade. Feels like the earliest Muromachi.

That actually answers a question I was hesitant to ask for fear of looking the fool. Many of the Naoe Shizu blades that I could still find pictures of to compare it with were Juyo blades of nearly identical proportions. However I thought the Jigane in this was one was as good or even better in some cases, but the hamon was not as strong as the Juyo blades and I didn't know if that was reason enough for such a difference in papering. Is it the kissaki that leads you to believe earliest Muromachi years?

Also interesting you bring up Sue-Sa. There is a second blade I have been studying that is judged Sue-Sa Ichimon. The Jigane to me looks to be a bit rougher, however the sugata is more grand and is several cm longer with more of a classic Nanbokucho o-kissaki. The exposure in the pictures has unfortunately blown out the details of the hamon.

Rivkin · February 27

Very tired or more likely tired and poor polish.

Katsujinken · February 27

Here is my Juyo Naoe Shizu (71 cm and kenzen), generally loved by those who see it in person. Darcy (RIP) once said he thought it would compete for a Kinju attribution if it were unpapered (and without the Honma Junji sayagaki giving it to NS).

The hamon has sunagashi and kinsuji, and the hada has fine ji nie and chikei. It demonstrates well the mixture of Soshu and Mino that one wants to see here. Mike Yamasaki thought it could have been ordered as an utsushi of Sadamune.

As with all schools, there are “levels” and it’s good to know what you’re getting if you’re buying Juyo.

Schneeds · February 28

Beautiful blade, Michael.

On 2/27/2024 at 1:10 AM, Rivkin said:

Very tired or more likely tired and poor polish.

Is this kitaeware, shinae, or munegirie? Seller has stated it is kitaeware, but cannot provide additional photographs. It does not appear on the opposing side, but there's no way to tell if continues around the edge down into the mune. How big of a concern?

Alex A · February 28

Shintetsu, core steel

Japanese SWORD FLAWS (japaneseswordindex.com)

Oh sorry, you mean the little marks, just look like a dint and a crack, not serious but depends how fussy you are.

Schneeds · February 28

35 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Shintetsu, core steel

Where is there core steel visible? The little oval defect in the bottom of the hi? or referring to the other blade I posted above that is tired?

Alex A · February 28

Hi i was referring the images above my comment, the little oval defect appeared to be a dint, to my eyes.

Bottom picture, left at first glance appears to be some difference, darkness, possibly core steel beginning to show.

On old swords, acceptable in moderation.

Can expect stuff like this on very old swords, part of the reason that got me more interested in Shinsakuto.

Schneeds · February 28

Ah ok, thank you. It's tough to identify things like that as a beginner especially knowing the effect lighting can have.

Here's the original image set and I took the liberty of balancing out the exposure and contrast. They heavily side-lit the blade from the right to bring out the texture so there's only so much I can do. I think I see what you mean but it seems minimal and not unpleasing.

Alex A · February 28

To me it looks a good blade but appears it wont take any more polish

Tsuku · February 29

On 2/26/2024 at 6:20 PM, Schneeds said:

That actually answers a question I was hesitant to ask for fear of looking the fool. Many of the Naoe Shizu blades that I could still find pictures of to compare it with were Juyo blades of nearly identical proportions. However I thought the Jigane in this was one was as good or even better in some cases, but the hamon was not as strong as the Juyo blades and I didn't know if that was reason enough for such a difference in papering. Is it the kissaki that leads you to believe earliest Muromachi years?

The brightness and clarity of the hamon is a big deal at Juyo. Maybe it would help to think about it this way — jūyō means "important," but also in the sense of "essential" or "principal." (It doesn't really mean "nice sword.") So for a blade to be "important" in this sense it needs to either have some historical context that justifies its importance, or be an exemplar of what those blades should be. So you can ask "is this an example that shows everything important about this school's tradition of work?" If you say "yes, almost all of it" then it's likely a decent candidate — but you also need to understand what "almost all of it" means. For example, Western collectors often neglect the boshi, but it is one of the most important fingerprints we have of school/smith, so this is actually quite important.

What sticks out to me about this Naoe Shizu is that the geometry of the kissaki does not look geometrically correct. Perhaps the blade was chipped, and this was how the togishi tried to save it. Take a look at these two resources and then look at the kissaki again. What do you see?

Schneeds · February 29

6 hours ago, Tsuku said:

Take a look at these two resources and then look at the kissaki again. What do you see?

You're referring to the angle of the yokote?

If it wasn't obvious, I'm not looking at this like a Juyo candidate. My budget range is nowhere near Juyo

Here's a composite of two of the images of the same side of the kissaki, adjusted for a 180 degree plane. The yokote angle is substantially different, even in relation to the mune edge. Maybe they're using a wide angle lens and not using distortion correction or it's the angle the image is taken in relation to the blade? When I do the composite for the other side there's a difference, but it's not as extreme. Without seeing it in person I don't think it will be possible to know one way or the other. But now I'm not scrutinizing the yokote of every blade I look at so that's good

Schneeds · March 6

On 2/28/2024 at 12:51 PM, Alex A said:

To me it looks a good blade but appears it wont take any more polish

What do you think of this Naoe Shizu compared to the first one? It is from the same seller; a fair bit of a cost increase though. The Nagasa is nearly identical length. To me the jiagne is more of a standout on this one with well defined pattern and there is more to appreciate since there are no hi present, but I also thought the hi went well with the first blade. The hamon I am unsure.

Katsujinken · March 10

Personally I want to see a bit more hamachi on a blade, but the workmanship is good in my opinion.

That said, something about that kissaki feels weird/out of proportion to me... anyone else agree?

Alex A · March 11

When looking to buy old swords i guess one may have to make compromises.

All down to personal taste and what you can live with.

There's always alternatives for those that are picky and want perfect condition....................Shinsakuto.

I like the sword above but I'm not buying it. Point being and i mean this with respect as i used to ask lots of various folks opinions when it comes to a purchase. Unless you are really sure for yourself and not relying on others then i don't think you can truly appreciate what you are buying. We all have varying biased opinions that may influence you. I think to be truly happy with a purchase one has to make the decision alone, based on what you alone like. That, with a good deal of research and time thrown in, so no rush.

Many buy swords then change their minds, find a sword you will appreciate and keep.

nulldevice · March 11

21 hours ago, Katsujinken said:

Personally I want to see a bit more hamachi on a blade, but the workmanship is good in my opinion.

That said, something about that kissaki feels weird/out of proportion to me... anyone else agree?

When you say you want more hamachi, are you implying that too much metal has been lost in polishing making the hamachi near flush with the start of the nakago? I've heard a few people make comments like this and I'm not 100% sure what people mean.

Thanks

Katsujinken · March 11

5 hours ago, nulldevice said:

When you say you want more hamachi, are you implying that too much metal has been lost in polishing making the hamachi near flush with the start of the nakago? I've heard a few people make comments like this and I'm not 100% sure what people mean.

Thanks

Yep, exactly. Compare to my photo up above.

Schneeds · March 12

When a blade is suriage, how do you judge the hamachi? The smith can rework the nakago however they see fit and create a new hamachi at whatever depth they choose, can't they?

Katsujinken · March 12

Only if the blade is machi okuri: http://www.ksky.ne.j...sumie99/suriage.html

And this would still have occurred hundreds of years ago, leaving plenty of time for more polishes.

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