US Army Infantry Collection Sword Identification

[chgruener]

Hello all,

 

I’ve already made a post in the translation topic section about my efforts so reference that post if interested. 
 

I came across this sword in our collection today and it struck me as being very odd. Does anyone know what it is? No scabbard. Any information is appreciated. Unfortunately I will not be able to take these apart unless they are already apart ( I know ).

[rematron]

My novice eyes see a NAGINATA turned into a WAKIZASHI.  Not uncommon.  What looks odd to me is the size of the TSUKA compared to the blade.  It looks a little 'thrown together'.  Another oddity is that the FUCHI appears to be on top of the TSUBA rather than underneath.  Is that tape around the HABAKI?

[chgruener]

42 minutes ago, rematron said:

My novice eyes see a NAGINATA turned into a WAKIZASHI.  Not uncommon.  What looks odd to me is the size of the TSUKA compared to the blade.  It looks a little 'thrown together'.  Another oddity is that the FUCHI appears to be on top of the TSUBA rather than underneath.  Is that tape around the HABAKI?

Yes it is probably tape. They keep multiple inventory/catalog tags on their items. Thanks for the information you presented. 

[Tensho]

That's definitely a Naginata. And it hasn't been re-shaped into a Naginata Naoshi. 

 

Would have been awesome to see more pictures of it disassembled. I agree that it looks like a Fuchi under the habaki(nice habaki btw)

 

Can we get a pic of the bare handle?

[chgruener]

47 minutes ago, Tensho said:

That's definitely a Naginata. And it hasn't been re-shaped into a Naginata Naoshi. 

 

Would have been awesome to see more pictures of it disassembled. I agree that it looks like a Fuchi under the habaki(nice habaki btw) but perhaps a rare chance that this is a dust cover? 

 

Seems unlikely as the Saya meant for this would be very large. 

 

Can we get a pic of the bare handle?

It unfortunately would have been frowned upon if I took things apart. Despite knowing how to properly do so. 
 

please see the Imgur link for more photos

 

https://imgur.com/a/2SMaIKZ

[Tensho]

Alright, yeah its just the fuchi. Looks like someone just jammed a Naginata blade into a Gunto tsuka for whatever reason. 

[mecox]

Hi Christopher, are you saying that the items you are showing all remain in the state/condition  in which they were donated?  So its not seen correct to alter them? 

[Brian]

Tell your museum or whatever, they are doing the equivalent of displaying or keeping a painting with a piece of tape over the signature and refusing to remove it. These things were MADE to be taken apart. That's why the signature was under the tsuka.
Not only odd, but pretty stupid. The blade has potential. But not if it's left like that. Doesn't belong with them.

[Stephen]

It's been apart and put back together in wrong order. 

 

Who's doing the frowning?

One doesn't buy a vintage car without seeing if it has matching numbers. 

[chgruener]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:57 AM, Brian said:

Tell your museum or whatever, they are doing the equivalent of displaying or keeping a painting with a piece of tape over the signature and refusing to remove it. These things were MADE to be taken apart. That's why the signature was under the tsuka.
Not only odd, but pretty stupid. The blade has potential. But not if it's left like that. Doesn't belong with them.

I was able to warm them up to taking some of the swords apart. I took quite a few apart and found some incredible things. 2 general officer swords, 2 really old blades, and a couple other really great ones.

[chgruener]

On 1/18/2024 at 3:53 AM, Stephen said:

It's been apart and put back together in wrong order. 

 

Who's doing the frowning?

One doesn't buy a vintage car without seeing if it has matching numbers. 

All pieces are donated or were acquired by the Army. 
 

only reason for the frowning is because they don’t want anything to break and they don’t necessarily trust any Joe to handle their pieces. I’m lucky enough to have access to them. However, I did warm them up to it and I took some apart. See my other comment. 

[chgruener]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:39 AM, mecox said:

Hi Christopher, are you saying that the items you are showing all remain in the state/condition  in which they were donated?  So its not seen correct to alter them? 

Correct. This is how the museum came into the pieces. Very little, if anything, is altered after acquisition. 

[mecox]

I wonder if there is a Japanese sword collection/discussion group nearby to where you are in Illinois.  Would be good to get some commentary and explanation.  The museum surely would wish to have items identified and displayed correctly.  

[The Blacksmith]

Is it perhaps a kuchi gane, not a fuchi next to the habaki?

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, The Blacksmith said:

Is it perhaps a kuchi gane, not a fuchi next to the habaki?

Looking at other pictures it show missing fuchi Russ

 

[The Blacksmith]

Quite true! Ooops, I missed that little detail................

[Stephen]

5 hours ago, chgruener said:

trust any Joe to handle their pieces. I’m lucky enough

They and you are lucky you have found the right website to recive correct information. 

Sorry if I was to cryptic in my post.

I was just saying someone had it appart before it came to your charge.

 

I've assisted  Iowa Gold Star Museum,

Iowa Historical society set up at gun show for years you'd be very surprised at what's been done to these relics over the years. 

 

There's not much that hasn't  been see by the collective members here.

 

I'm going to play devil's advocate here

To have the blades open to display is not good practice,  yes it's very dramatic but leads to Several possibilities of ruin, I would try to convince the curators to be open to 

different display. 

 

Have you posted the new photos? 

You have several post I may have missed them.

[chgruener]

3 hours ago, Stephen said:

They and you are lucky you have found the right website to recive correct information. 

Sorry if I was to cryptic in my post.

I was just saying someone had it appart before it came to your charge.

 

I've assisted  Iowa Gold Star Museum,

Iowa Historical society set up at gun show for years you'd be very surprised at what's been done to these relics over the years. 

 

There's not much that hasn't  been see by the collective members here.

 

I'm going to play devil's advocate here

To have the blades open to display is not good practice,  yes it's very dramatic but leads to Several possibilities of ruin, I would try to convince the curators to be open to 

different display. 

 

Have you posted the new photos? 

You have several post I may have missed them.

I can suggest to them that perhaps the displays should be changed, but I’m not sure that they are entirely in charge of that. Being federally owned and operated, the curators don’t have as much say over the displays as you’d think. There’s a lot of higher ups involved and a surprising amount of politics. It’s really silly. The curators I’ve worked with are great people and have good intentions, but they have their hands tied on a lot of things. As for blades in storage already, how do you suggest they’re stored? Currently they are in drawers, laid on acid free fabric, either in their scabbards, or out. Some of the blades started to accumulate rust, some a lot of rust, while in the scabbards. For those blades, I removed them from the scabbard, lightly oiled them, and kept them separate. What do you advise we do to preserve already rusted blades and blades that haven’t seen rust yet?

[Stephen]

No rust on blades keep in scabbard,  oiled lighty, if you can see  the oil streaks/beads its to much.

 

Rusty ones depends on how much rust if full rust oil well then the wrap in plastic wrap.  Keep next too mounts.

 

Just small spots referr to first step. 

 

I understand the bureaucracy even well known museums have swords rusting blades.  Seen you posted again going to have a look

[Stephen]

Link to Iowa Gold Star at camp dodge.

 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=iowa gold star museum camp dodge&PC=SANSAAND&form=LWS001&ssp=1&cc=US&setlang=en&safesearch=off

 

Not sure if same curators are there but maybe a reach out to cut some red tape

 

 

[Stephen]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:47 AM, chgruener said:

I was able to warm them up to taking some of the swords apart. I took quite a few apart and found some incredible things. 2 general officer swords, 2 really old blades, and a couple other really great ones.

Chris have we lost you?

Was hoping we'd get to see the nakago of the naginata. Any others been taken apart? The curator really needs to have it in its files for the history of the sword. 

[Stephen]

How often do we see this? something new gets posted then we never get to follow it.

[chgruener]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:30 AM, Stephen said:

Chris have we lost you?

Was hoping we'd get to see the nakago of the naginata. Any others been taken apart? The curator really needs to have it in its files for the history of the sword. 

You have not. I have been incredibly busy with a military course that I’m currently going through. Have not had much time to sort through the thousands of photos I took. I will post a few more today. 

[ROKUJURO]

I fear we will be very sad to see what remains of the NAGINATA NAKAGO in the TSUKA. To fit into it, it was probably worked on with a grinder. 

The ignorance, but also the lack of sensitivity of some people are hurting.

[Stephen]

Have we seen it yet?

[chgruener]

15 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Have we seen it yet?

This sword is one that I was unable to disassemble. But I have began to post more.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, chgruener said:

I was unable to disassemble

I'd be glad to give any assistance needed.