Are these fake, or just badly mistreated? / Is there even one good blade in this auction?

[George KN]

So I'm still on the hunt for my third sword, and there is an auction coming up I'm interested in.

 

There are nearly 50 lots in this one auction, and some of the Katana, Wakizashi, and Tanto look interesting, and the koshirae on many of them is actually pretty decent.

 

However, almost all of them have exactly the same mirror finish on the blades, as well as strangely rusted nakago.

 

What's concerning me about the rust is it looks very fresh, almost like water damage - and what signatures there are seem clumsy to me.

 

The mirror finish on the blades also seems to rob any real view of their quality, and they all seem to be missing their yokote too. Some of them have rusted in a way that makes me think acid has been used at some stage too.

 

I'll attach a few images below - each nakago will be from a separate blade, and I'd love to hear what you think whether they are real?

Thanks,

 George

 

Edit: I had not realised this had been raised in a different thread - I have changed my question below
 

 

 

 

[George KN]

Further images:

 

[ChrisW]

This is the auction that was discussed here:

 

 

In my opinion, these are likely fake/modern reproduction blades paired with some antique fittings in a colossal waste of money to deceive new collectors. Steer clear of this auction, these deals are really just "steals" from new collectors.

[George KN]

Thanks for point that out @ChrisW, I had completely missed that discussion! It really is quite the collection to sift through 

[George KN]

Since this thread exists, and now needs a purpose beyond the other thread discussing the obscenity of the auction as a whole - there is one sword in particular I think might be real...

 

It hasn't got any of that fake rust, and hasn't been completely polished to oblivion - do you think it would be worth a punt?

I can't imagine it is too old judging from the patina alone, but I assume it is an antique? Also worth mentioning the tsuba has a crack in it...
 

 

[Tsuku]

Why do you think this blade is authentic?

[George KN]

Mainly the form of the nakago and the lack of tampering. It just looks honest to me.

 

I will admit I'm not expert though - that's why I'm after opinions...

 

What would make you think it *isn't* antique or authentic? (Apart from its incredibly alarming companions, and terrible polishing job)

[Katsujinken]

That nakago looks like it was made yesterday using modern tools and half-heartedly aged. 

Please, don’t waste your money on “punts.”

 

Buy some books. Watch some of the many documentaries on YouTube. If there’s a sword club in your area, join up. It’ll be worth it!

[Tsuku]

1 hour ago, Ghoul414 said:

Mainly the form of the nakago and the lack of tampering. It just looks honest to me.

 

I will admit I'm not expert though - that's why I'm after opinions...

 

What would make you think it *isn't* antique or authentic? (Apart from its incredibly alarming companions, and terrible polishing job)

The shape of the nakago is unexpected; bulbous, chunky, even inelegant. I do not see any hint of activity in the steel, and the hamon seems artificial.

[Guest Simon R]

The only authentic part of these blades is inside the mekugi ana.

[Paz]

No activity present. 

 

You can easily get a modern reproduction and just age the nakago and chisel a fake signature. This may be the case here. I beleive that you can see a black felt tip mark on the tang. 

 

If your new. Buy papered first, then when your learned and confident. Then try the auctions on unpapered blades. But even then you can be , and adept collectors have been duped. 

 

Hope that helps

[vajo]

The rust looks like sprayed with saltwater. The kanji looks worse. I think someone wanted to imitate Japanese swords.

[George KN]

Thanks guys, I have now mentally written off all these blades as essentially valueless - that last one was the only one I had a doubt on.

 

With regards to the best way to go about collecting, I do appreciate the sentiment that buying things at auction is incredibly risky, especially when relatively new to the subject. However, with regards to purchasing papered blades, I'm simply not able to afford them... And importing into the UK isn't great either, so I am somewhat stuck trawling the auctions looking for opportunities under the <£1k mark.

[Matsunoki]

29 minutes ago, Ghoul414 said:

And importing into the UK isn't great either, so I am somewhat stuck trawling the auctions looking for opportunities under the <£1k mark.

George, what type/style/age of sword are you looking for?  Samurai, WW2, etc

[George KN]

@Matsunoki - I'm currently looking for:

• Shinshintō and earlier (samurai)
• O-wakizashi or larger (preferably katana)
• No kizu (I would rather a sword be out of polish than have visible kizu)
• Preferably mumei (I like the idea of a humble swordsmith)

[Paz]

In my experience @Ghoul414 it would be best to save up and in the mean time get some books. Getting papered works under the £1k in the UK is very very rare, maybe even in impossible. Your best bet might be attending arms fairs and shows in the UK which there are a few especially Birmingham. 

Here you can view stuff in hand.

 

In regards to studying further 

Joining the Token society GB is also a good reccomend. 

 

Otherwise you will be gambling at auctions, and unfortunately I've seen stuff like you posted one to many of the last year or so.

 

Some authentic stuff at auction is also highly priced aswell. 

 

Regards 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

46 minutes ago, Ghoul414 said:

I'm currently looking for:

George, that’s going to be a tough ask given that a half decent WW2 mass produced sword will probably set you back around £1k. Depends if you can lower your sights a bit…..maybe consider a modest wakizashi or Tanto as a start point? Also depends if you want a full Koshirae which of course jacks the price up. 
It’s a bit of a shark infested minefield out there. Best to do as Paz suggests…..have a look around a few fairs, find a dealer you can trust and where you can handle swords and be patient. Don’t buy at auction based just on images and remember hardly any UK auctioneers know anything about swords.

Best to acquire some deeper knowledge and an educated eye before you acquire (expensive)swords.

But having  said all that, you can still learn a lot from even damaged items….provided they are genuine.

Good luck.

Colin

[George KN]

It is a complete minefield out there, I agree! And the prices you've both quoted are right, especially for buying from dealers or other collectors.

 

But I will raise you this - my first two swords I bought at auction for £1674.40 (plus ~£100 shipping), unpapered, mumei, and damaged saya sure, but there is hope for finding some half decent swords in my price range... It's just a very risky business, that takes a lot of sifting, occasionally a bit of pestering on the forums, and a lot of patience.

I also can't help but think that when I do buy from auction I might also be saving a sword or tsuba from a horrendous fate - as although I'm sure I make mistakes from time to time, I'm at least not going to begin trying to use acid on them or chop things up for fun, and instead keep them on display and in good condition. So there's that side of the bargain hunting I definitely enjoy too.

One day I will save up enough to buy a papered blade, or hopefully, at least get these two properly polished and sent of for their own papers, that would be really cool! I'm just not there yet (really should be buying a car instead of more blades, but I know which one I'd rather have )
 

 

[George KN]

Oh, and @Paz, I am a member of the Token society, I joined last year, but haven't had the pleasure of going to any of the meets yet (work/distance/lack of personal transportation/bringing swords on a train etc) - I probably should show up at the one in Birmingham this year though...

[Scott JM]

Am I just being paranoid or do those auction blades look oil tempered?  I'm not seeing alot of hamon activity there.

---Scott M.

[Guest Simon R]

1 hour ago, Scott JM said:

Am I just being paranoid or do those auction blades look oil tempered?  I'm not seeing alot of hamon activity there.

---Scott M.

You can't make that kind of call based on those long distance photos.

Plus, even a Kiyomaru won't show any hamon activity if it's been given a generous wipe of Solvol Autosol. (Not suggesting George has done that.)

[Matsunoki]

6 hours ago, Scott JM said:

Am I just being paranoid or do those auction blades look oil tempered?  I'm not seeing alot of hamon activity there.

Which “auction blades” are you talking about? The two bought by George at auction (shown together above) or the horrors that are the original subject of this topic? Best to be clear.

[Anthony de Vos]

Hi!

 

I liked the yari hidden in the kanabo, rare sight. Unfortunately the underbidder since I had no time to follow the auction. The rest, maybe with the exeption of one or two yari, looked terrible.

 

Anthony

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Anthony de Vos said:

I liked the yari hidden in the kanabo, rare sight. Unfortunately the underbidder since I had no time to follow the auction. The rest, maybe with the exeption of one or two yari, looked terrible.

Anthony, I think you are talking about a different sale. The one discussed in this thread hasn’t happened yet! Maybe you refer to the Sworders sale a few weeks ago?

This thread is getting very confusing!

Best

Colin

[Wolfmanreid]

If you want an auction to take a punt on the below auction has several dozen nihonto in varying states of neglect...  I can only imagine that the owner of the collection must have bought every bringback blade he stumbled across at garage sales and flea markets.  

 

Rock Island Auction

Sporting & Collector Firearms Auction #1045

February 16th, 2024-February 18th, 2024

[PNSSHOGUN]

Surprised RIA even stooped to listing those, basically all junk level.

[Wolfmanreid]

For whatever reason nihonto always sell and usually above what they are worth when RIA sells them. I bought a gimei Sanemori in nice kyu gunto fittings from them and sold it again at rock island a year later for over double what I paid for it.  They have sold some juyo level blades over the years I think.