Tsuba Box Question

[Kanenaga]

I just received a new tsuba, unboxed, but I can't fit it to any of my empty tsuba boxes because the center pillar (don't know the correct term) is too large to fit the nakago-ana. Does anyone know of a way to shrink that center support device without destroying the box?

 

Les

[Bugyotsuji]

It can be done but it’s a hassle to do, the wood inside is usually already of poor quality and it would loosen the original pin fastenings, and they need to be tight.

 

The best thing IMHO is to swap already occupied boxes around with other tsuba, and/or wait for the right box to appear. Collect more boxes in the meantime. There are never enough to go round!!! 

[Bugyotsuji]

PS The base plate/board of some of these boxes will tap out easily. If it's one of those, you can see the underneath of it and usually the two small nails holding the central positioner on.

 

One problem is trying to get the nails to realign afterwards, but if they don't, they create new channels, which is usually enough to split the nose piece asunder.

Another problem is keeping the cloth intact or trying to find matching cloth, and wrapping it tightly. 

To tell the truth, if you feel confident enough, you'd be better off creating a new base and 'nose'.

 

Or use the box for something else! 

[Soshin]

6 hours ago, Kanenaga said:

I just received a new tsuba, unboxed, but I can't fit it to any of my empty tsuba boxes because the center pillar (don't know the correct term) is too large to fit the nakago-ana.

 

Les,

 

I agree with @Bugyotsuji comments. Assuming the tsuba is of high quality and has historical or artistic value, it is always better to have a custom box made for the tsuba. I have a NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papered high quality tsuba that has a nice quality outer box, but the central post is not custom made and like yours does not fit as well as it should. Getting just a custom box insert and pad made in Japan for what is a nice quality outer box would be a clever idea. I was thinking it would also give me a chance for the elusive NBTHK Juyo rank for this fine tsuba.       

[Guest Simon R]

Same problem; I just tapped out the bottom as Piers suggests and made the correct sized wooden post.

The original material was moth eaten and it didn't have a cushion so I took this opportunity to recover the base and make a cushion (in red, just be different).

[Stephen]

Measure your Ana and I'll check some boxes I'm getting read to post for sale.

[Stephen]

PS 

Most are a standard size unless made to/for the tsuba. 

 

[Guest Simon R]

21 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Measure your Ana

I misread that. 🤣

[Bugyotsuji]

Great job, Simon! 

 

Strangely, Stephen, although I only have about 50 or 60, most of my boxes are not exactly the same size! Try getting the wrong lid to fit... or a different base board to slot in. 

(Unless they are part of a batch of boxes made to a set standard.)

[Stephen]

OK I'll stop

Over n out

[Guest Simon R]

36 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Great job, Simon! 

 

Strangely, Stephen, although I only have about 50 or 60, most of my boxes are not exactly the same size! Try getting the wrong lid to fit... or a different base board to slot in. 

(Unless they are part of a batch of boxes made to a set standard.)

Thanks Piers!

 

Absolutely agree on the boxes - everything I've got (which is a mere fraction of your collection) is 1 or 2 mm different somewhere.

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies, Stephen, I misunderstood your meaning. Don’t back out! Good idea for Les to measure the inner Nakago-ana dimensions! 

[rkg]

Another option is to just make a new liner - I know Ford had an article up on this, but weren't there a few others out there?  I probably have something squirreled away, but....

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[JohnTo]

Hi Les,

A timely query as I am just making a liner for a tsuba box.  I like to throw out the standard Japanese liners, mainly because the pegs are held in with steel tacks and can damage tsuba if the peg breaks loose.  I suppose I now have more than 30 in my refurbished boxes and may have posted notes before on how I make them.

The current project is a bit unusual.  By coincidence I bought a silver sake cup as part of a job lot at auction recently and it came with a tsuba style box, but large 11 cm square.  I then bought a monster of a tsuba, 9.6 cm, without a box.  The project is not finished yet, but here are some photos.  Normally I make the liner out of EVA sheeting, but this time I decided to make one out of balsa wood.  I prefer using the EVA.  Custom pegs are easy to make with EVA.  I still have to trim this one in the photo, but it gives the idea and is shown together with an EVA blank peg  Covered one is on its side and awaits final trim. EVA blank is top view.  Fina pic is tsuba in its new box plus covered liner and peg, not glued and trimmed yet.  Hope this helps,

Best regards, John

[Ghoul]

Super useful tips on this thread! Apart from making/adapting my own, is there a recognized best place to buy boxes? (At the moment I could do with only two good ones, but I have a few extra rougher tsuba that at least deserve *something* to be stored in properly - oh, and I'm UK based if that's relevant)

[Spartancrest]

6 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

best place to buy boxes?

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1121787053  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/l1121787053    for Yahoo, Buyee etc just change the last bit of item code  [/l1121787053 ] to suit each site and find the same item.

https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1121718697 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/j1121726263  Single no cushions

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/u1121433126  storage for four in a larger box and large cushion 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1121354202

 

   

 

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1117803838 single boxes with cushion

https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1119676268

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/g1120465720  Multiples of three

https://www.jauce.com/auction/q1119464411

  

 

Spare cushions https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1119730416

 

These are all brand new.

 

Check ebay prices https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/134893671984    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204433191347    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/134300159648   - - and run!

 

Not too bad from Poland - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/166348833527    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/166348832982

 

Second hand boxes can also be found.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Just to spoil the party here, "Party pooper!!!", I find the boxes do not solve all of the problems in life.

 

As a static display they are fine, no, more than fine, very nice actually. And to save yourself rummaging through the pile you might need some system of quick identification without actually opening the lids to check.

 

When you need to carry them somewhere for some reason (to a friend's house, to a display or going abroad etc.), however, unless you can figure out a way to make the original little pegs secure, (see John above) and the cushion and lid fit tightly, there is always the danger that the tsuba will break loose inside the box. This means putting each tsuba into a soft bag, and carrying the boxes separately. I guess you could place the soft tsuba bag (with tsuba) on top of the box and then wrap each bundle with suitable bands. Anyway, whatever method you choose, you need to be extra conscious of the alignment of your precious tsuba inside each box.

[Guest Simon R]

3 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Just to spoil the party here, "Party pooper!!!", I find the boxes do not solve all of the problems in life.

 

As a static display they are fine, no, more than fine, very nice actually. And to save yourself rummaging through the pile you might need some system of quick identification without actually opening the lids to check.

 

When you need to carry them somewhere for some reason (to a friend's house, to a display or going abroad etc.), however, unless you can figure out a way to make the original little pegs secure, (see John above) and the cushion and lid fit tightly, there is always the danger that the tsuba will break loose inside the box. This means putting each tsuba into a soft bag, and carrying the boxes separately. I guess you could place the soft tsuba bag (with tsuba) on top of the box and then wrap each bundle with suitable bands. Anyway, whatever method you choose, you need to be extra conscious of the alignment of your precious tsuba inside each box.

Hello 'Party Pooper' 😉

 

My personal solutions:

 

"... some system of quick identification without actually opening the lids to check"

= Post-it stickers on the box lid.

 

"... unless you can figure out a way to make the original little pegs secure"

= Pull off the peg as soon as you get the box. (Easy to do as the wood is so soft.) Apply a good PVA woodworking adhesive to the base of the peg, making sure to get some in both of the pin holes. Carefully replace peg onto pins and push firmly home.

The glue will have no real adhesion on the steel pins (beyond pressure) but it will firmly bond the wood and cloth of the peg to the cloth of the base - thus saving your precious tsuba from twin, parallel scratches in transit.

 

"... and the cushion and lid fit tightly,"

= The good old elastic band or, if that is too offensive to your sense of aesthetics, knicker-elastic. 

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

I'll put up some for sale  in the morning. 

[Spartancrest]

30 minutes ago, Simon R said:

knicker-elastic. 

Now you are talking! 

 

        

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... knicker elastic, yes. I have a drawer full of pilfered knickers, so, frilly garters, here we come!!!

 

Actually I did experiment with elastic bands, but rubber tends to perish quickly in Japan and leave nasty deposits, then I found those larger flat ones thrown onto the pavements by postal workers in the UK to be good. Then I was given some broad black tyre/tire type rubber bands which were all too tight. The perfect solution was bento bako lunch box bands from the ￥100 shop. Oh and yes, I do use stickits/postits! 

[Steves87]

Along the lines of Dale's post, there was a post here on NMB a few years ago where a member stated they kept the original peg (I think) and drilled two holes in it. They removed the nails then glued and tied (with string) the peg through the baseplate. 

I thought this was a good idea, so I 3d printed a ton of pegs. The pegs have two holes the whole way through, with a recess between the holes (on one face only) for the knot to sit in. You can subsequently cover/finish the peg as desired. Hopefully you can see these details on the picture.

 

Mostly not my idea, but it works and has two stage adherence. If it does break off, it's relatively soft. 

[Guest Simon R]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Hmmm... knicker elastic, yes. I have a drawer full of pilfered knickers, so frilly garters, here we come!!!

 

Actually I did experiment with elastic bands, but rubber tends to perish quickly in Japan and leave nasty deposits, then I found those larger flat ones thrown onto the pavements by postal workers in the UK to be good. Then I was given some broad black tyre/tire type rubber bands which were all too tight. The perfect solution was bento bako lunch box bands from the ￥100 shop. Oh and yes, I do use stickits/postits! 

Just as you posted that, I was right next to a ¥100 shop; you were spot on about bento bako bands!

Not only safely closed now, but they're all "DELIZIOSO" too! What more could I ask?

 

(In fact, I reckon these swanky bands may just clinch me Tokubetsu Juyo! 😉)

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Excellent reactions, Simon! 

 

 

Beautiful guns are Nature enhanced by artisans.

[Guest Simon R]

23 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Excellent reactions, Simon! 

 

 

Beautiful guns are Nature enhanced by artisans.

Everything is just so "DELIZIOSO" around here now!!!!

[Stephen]

Delete please 

Edited January 19 by Stephen
To remove

[JohnTo]

As Piers noted it can be difficult finding a specific tsuba amongst a pile of boxes if they are not labelled in some way.  I put a label on top of the box with its inventory number and picture.  On the one side (bottom) of the box I put a label with the inventory number together with my hanko stamp (available from Japan via Ebay).  The stamp is a useful means to identify which way up the lid goes on the box and by placing the stamp in slightly different positions it ensures that the correct top goes on the box.

Added to that each box contains a strip of paper (about 30 x 10 cm, long edge folded in three to fit in the box).  One side shows photos, the other my description and notes (these are referenced to my main inventory).  Always useful when you want to refresh your memory and sometimes think 'I got that wrong.  I'll I have to update.' 

Photos of a typical tsuba set are attached.

 

Best regards, John

[JohnTo]

George wrote '(At the moment I could do with only two good ones, but I have a few extra rougher tsuba that at least deserve *something* to be stored in properly - oh, and I'm UK based if that's relevant)'  Several years ago I posted my cheap way of storing tsuba in CD jewel cases.  I took a lot of stick from purists.  I still have quite a few stored in this way as I don't want to invest about £20 in a kiri box for a 'B' quality tsuba.  The CD jewel cases can also be stored in a custom aluminium box for storage and transportation without coming loose.  They also take up a lot less space, the aluminium storage box hold about 40.

Best regards, John

[rkg]

Now that we are talking about cataloging...

 

Here's an old thread that shows now I label tsuba boxes.  I use a 3M product where they put post-it material on the back of photo paper.  I choose it because its supposedly archival and also theoretically doesn't damage whatever is on the surface (it was developed to be able to put markers in old books after all) - not a big deal if the box is new, but if you want to provide info on a piece with a hakogaki by somebody famous, you probably don't want to damage anything (and on those I usually only put end labels in any case).  The problem is that they lay on the adhesive in strips which means you have to be careful about label placement - it works best if there is adhesive at both ends so you have to place it to do that. 

 

because most of my items are stored stacked in a safe, In addition to a label on the top, I also put a label on the end so I can look for boxes w/o having to remove anything.  This method also led me to start having decent tsuba box bags made that are open at one end.  I saw a few box bags done this way on Yahoo!Japan and the light bulb went on...

 

I would also add that another way to store them is like they did in the old days - they would just fold the piece in several pieces of washi and/ or mulberry paper (having a senior moment on the correct name) with a terse label on the outside saying what the piece is.  This whole whizzy box thing really a pretty recent development, as I've seen these older "folded paper" storage dated as late as the taisho period.  I have seen quite a number of "daimyo" kodogu that have been stored that way for a long time.  Of course time marches on - now, most of the examples I've seen in hand have whizzy wood boxes with pull out sections to store all the extant old packaging.  This is somewhat common on old Goto pieces that still have a goto kanteisho for example.

 

I actually have done washi wrappers on a few pieces and put that whole assembly into a box - its lots easier to make an otoshi for rather than for the piece itself.  The way the Japanese fold up things doesn't work with my brain well - I managed to get an example of one of these wrappers so I could use it as a model.

 

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Teaching my grandmother to suck aggs again! 

 

Some of the catalog systems here are pretty thorough! 

 

Pedant mode on... although the Horagai is often broadly called a 'conch' as that recalls a certain image of Indian Shankha shells, etc., in Japan it is more specifically a 'triton' (shell). Charonia tritonis, Triton's trumpet. Pedant mode off.