WW2 Japanese Officer’s Samurai Sword Wakizashi Family Blade Nobukuni NBTHK Hozon

[Swords]

Hi I have this sword I want to put up because I can use some help with this sword 

I did some research about the smith and couldn’t find much information I saw one like it on the internet and was valued at over 2000 without papers This is the ist one I ever had with NBTHK Hozon documentation Does this add any value?

Anyway I paid about 2400 incld EBay fees or it would have been 2000

It’s also in full polish

I wanted a short sword 

hope I didn’t do to bad 

 

Steve 

[Ray Singer]

Absolutely, current valid NBTHK papers do give added value. The attribution is shinto period Chikuzen Nobukuni. 

[Swords]

Got it Ray thanks 

 

[Swords]

I’m trying to see if this information is correct for this sword I did some research but can use another opinion 

 

 

[Ray Singer]

This is not the same attribution. Your sword is not papered to Yoshimasa. As I said above it is papered to shinto Chikuzen Nobukuni. 

[Swords]

Bummer I thought it was 3.5milliom yen Or jo suka

 

 

Thanks Ray 

[Ray Singer]

3.5M yen in the Toko Taikan is a relative value (like a point value) and does not represent a real price estimate. You cannot use the Toko Taikan to price your swords or say that a blade is actually worth such-and-such million yen. 

[Swords]

Quote me if I’m wrong know it’s not the value However I think it represents how good the sword was made ?

like good excellent etc Like a grading system 

 

Also Jo suka gives it more? So any of this doesn’t represent mine ?Excuse my lack of knowledge 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

You know it is possible to search what the terms actually mean?

[Ray Singer]

No, it does not represent your sword because the bio that you shared above is not the swordsmith your sword was attributed to. Your sword was not papered to Yoshimasa, so the rating of Yoshimasa is not applicable. 

 

Jo-saku is the middle tier of five tiers within the Fujishiro rating system. 

[Swords]

I am familiar with the the Fujishiro rating I’m bummed out thinking I had the correct information Now I have to figure out where I can find info for shinto ChikuzenNobukuni. since I was looking in the wrong places 

 

 

Thanks so much 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nulldevice]

1 hour ago, Ray Singer said:

3.5M yen in the Toko Taikan is a relative value (like a point value) and does not represent a real price estimate. You cannot use the Toko Taikan to price your swords or say that a blade is actually worth such-and-such million yen. 

Doesn’t the Toko Taikan rating yen man value refer to the best work by that given sword smith? 
 

Not all swords by a 3.5M yen smith, will be worth 3.5M according to Taikan. Even then, the market determines the true value of a sword, and the yen values are just a way to compare how one smith’s work compared to another. Same with the Fujishiro rankings. 
 

That seems to be what I’ve read so far.

[PNSSHOGUN]

https://www.samurais...iths-rating-systems/

[Guest Simon R]

8 hours ago, Swords said:

........I did some research ......

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Swords]

You have nothing to add but more babaling criticism which nobody wants to hear

Just move on my friend 

 

 

 

[David Flynn]

Seriously Steve, you should study Nihonto terms and spelling.

[Guest Simon R]

2 hours ago, Swords said:

You have nothing to add but more babaling criticism which nobody wants to hear

 

 

 

Even English spelling would be a start.

 

Here's a brand new word to broaden your vocabulary:

[Swords]

Brian please end this thread!  It started out as an informative thread until  others ruin it

This is not about discussions but about disrespectful people 

I want to thank others  who added good information 

[Stephen]

You guys who feel the need to keep kicking Steven around is getting SAF

 

try doing what grandma use to say

" If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"

 

It's his learning curve let him have it.

Being however slow it is.

[Ray Singer]

12 hours ago, nulldevice said:

Doesn’t the Toko Taikan rating yen man value refer to the best work by that given sword smith? 
 

Not all swords by a 3.5M yen smith, will be worth 3.5M according to Taikan. Even then, the market determines the true value of a sword, and the yen values are just a way to compare how one smith’s work compared to another. Same with the Fujishiro rankings. 
 

That seems to be what I’ve read so far.

 

Before the thread gets shut down, I haven't generally found the yen values to be an accurate valuation that I would suggest anyone look at in a serious way. They seem more valuable for relative, comparative evaluations in the same way that other rating systems' tiers work. It may be that they were more relevant years ago when the Toko Taikan was written, but when I look at those values today and think of what a perfect, ubu Juyo example of a smith's work would list for the yen values do not line up.

 

 

[Mark]

sword is signed Nobukuni saku.....  Paper says Chikuzen and Shinto.  so i did a quick google search and found https://nihontoclub....a=All&school_nid=All

 

here is a list of smiths..................  so my opinion is the NBTHK is saying it is one of these.  it is a starting point. i  didn't look at Hawley's or Sesko's index but they probably list similar.  Maybe you can search for a matching oshigata to narrow it down

 

i agree with Ray. I do not try and equate values to money i think they are just to compare, if i see i sword with a hawley rating or 50 or 100 i figure they are worth research (probably gimei in my experience) and worth more (if genuine) that the usual 15 or 20 points

Nobukuni	NOB271	信國		Chikuzen	Kanei (1624-1644)			15 / /	NMK-717-13 SJS-472
Nobukuni	NOB272	信國		Chikuzen	Jōō (1652-1655)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB273	信國		Chikuzen	Kanbun (1661-1673)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB274	信國		Chikuzen	Kanbun (1661-1673)			50 / /
Nobukuni	NOB275	信國		Chikuzen	Shinto (1596-1781)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB276	信國		Chikuzen	Shōhō (1644-1648)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB277	信國		Chikuzen	Kanbun (1661-1673)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB278	信國		Chikuzen	Kanbun (1661-1673)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB279	信國		Chikuzen	Kanbun (1661-1673)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB280	信國		Chikuzen	Enpō (1673-1681)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB281	信國	1st	Chikuzen	Genroku (1688-1704)			15 / /
Nobukuni	NOB282	信國		Chikuzen	Tenna (1681-1684)			20 / 200 /

[nulldevice]

1 hour ago, Ray Singer said:

 

Before the thread gets shut down, I haven't generally found the yen values to be an accurate valuation that I would suggest anyone look at in a serious way. They seem more valuable for relative, comparative evaluations in the same way that other rating systems' tiers work. It may be that they were more relevant years ago when the Toko Taikan was written, but when I look at those values today and think of what a perfect, ubu Juyo example of a smith's work would list for the yen values do not line up.

 

 

Thanks, I figured the yen values were just an arbitrary valuation used to rank smiths against each other rather than "what is my sword worth today in 2024".

 

I appreciate the clarification.

[Legatus]

Apologies for butting in on a slightly tangential note. I should also post the following information in a separate thread. 

 

Everybody, and I mean most everybody in the English language Nihonto World and Press, takes and uses the abbreviation "M" to mean a "Million"

 

Regarding the value abbreviation say, "2M" Yen , the "M" is NOT an abbreviation for the word Million, which does NOT exist in Japanese.

"M" is actually the lazy English abbreviation for the Chinese value 萬 / 万 , pronounced "Man or Mon",  which is actually TEN THOUSAND , not one million. 

so 2M Yen would in the Toko Teikan at that time mean 20,000 Yen,  which could be a roughly fair representation of the value at that time.  

 

There is NO single word for million in Chinese/ Japanese; rather it is expressed as 100 Man (100x 10,000 = 1000,000)

 

Note that in the mid-late 1800s/early 1900s 1 Yen = 1 US silver dollar !!

And coincidentally with inflation,  devaluation, and depreciation of the value of swords as an essential item, 

with the current rate 150 yen to 1 USD  (the USD of which itself has lost 98% of its purchasing value)  it will not be too far off in the future when our swords are actually worth a few million yen again, at which time that "M" will really mean Million. 

 

Please carry on.....   and best to Steve for starting on his long and most importantly fun, Nihonto journey ...

and I don't mean to be a number Nazi, but this is just a far too common misconception that I feel would benefit from a correction.

 

Cheers, Leon 

[Scogg]

If you got this sword for your own enjoyment, learning, and collection, I don’t think you did too bad. It looks in great polish, and I, personally, like the fittings. The WW2 connection is cool to me too…
 

For my own curiosity, can you tell us where the leather clip strap is connected? Is it connected to a seppa or something? It looks like it disappears under the tsuba between the fuchi 

 

[Guest Simon R]

1 hour ago, Legatus said:

Apologies for butting in on a slightly tangential note. I should also post the following information in a separate thread. 

 

Everybody, and I mean most everybody in the English language Nihonto World and Press, takes and uses the abbreviation "M" to mean a "Million"

 

Regarding the value abbreviation say, "2M" Yen , the "M" is NOT an abbreviation for the word Million, which does NOT exist in Japanese.

"M" is actually the lazy English abbreviation for the Chinese value 萬 / 万 , pronounced "Man or Mon",  which is actually TEN THOUSAND , not one million. 

so 2M Yen would in the Toko Teikan at that time mean 20,000 Yen,  which could be a roughly fair representation of the value at that time.  

 

There is NO single word for million in Chinese/ Japanese; rather it is expressed as 100 Man (100x 10,000 = 1000,000)

 

Note that in the mid-late 1800s/early 1900s 1 Yen = 1 US silver dollar !!

And coincidentally with inflation,  devaluation, and depreciation of the value of swords as an essential item, 

with the current rate 150 yen to 1 USD  (the USD of which itself has lost 98% of its purchasing value)  it will not be too far off in the future when our swords are actually worth a few million yen again, at which time that "M" will really mean Million. 

 

Please carry on.....   and best to Steve for starting on his long and most importantly fun, Nihonto journey ...

and I don't mean to be a number Nazi, but this is just a far too common misconception that I feel would benefit from a correction.

 

Cheers, Leon 

Now that is extremely useful and informative, Leon.

An all too common misconception thoroughly debunked.

Thank you!

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

can you tell us where the leather clip strap is connected

Good eye, George! I had assumed it had come up from the leather saya cover, but from this picture, you can see it is above the tuba, like you say.

[DTM72]

Looks to be the leather seppa with the strap/snap vs. the also seen fuchi ring with snap/strap. 

it just looks like it is not pushed through the hitsu-ana to where it would engage the matching snap on the saya cover. The usual case is the the leather saya cover and the snap/strap have shrunk over time and will no longer meet and snap.

[Scogg]

Thank you @DTM72 and @Bruce Pennington ! That is something that I have not seen before; and now I'll have this reference if I see it in the future.

I have a few swords with a leather cover, and similarly, none of them align so they snap together anymore.

All the best,

-Sam

[DTM72]

The fuchi ring with snap. This type is used when all your seppa and tsuba are tight. If you have a type 94/98 with leather saya and the tsuba is loose, you need the leather seppa with the strap/snap. Sorry, can't find a good picture anywhere of this type.

[Swords]

Hi y’all took pictures It looks like the strap is between the fuchi and seppa I wish it were a double snap rather than single but if I’m lucky I may find one on eBay The tsuba is a little looser than I would like any ideas?

I looked in my Oshigata book 

No luck on this smith I agree with George about the ww2 connection Its one of the reasons why I bought it 

Lots of good information from everyone and thanks for that 

Just picked up another book by Jim Dawson

And am looking to buy one by Military Swords  Of Japan Book By Richard Fuller  And 

 book of connoisseurs  That should keep me busy for awhile Yes it is quite a journey endless and fascinating one