Beautifully Filed Tsuba With Manji (NOT Nazi Swastika)

ROKUJURO · January 14

All tools would leave specific traces on the metal. Have a close look at the grooves on the respective TSUBA. They do not show a smooth surface but a structure. That is why I wondered about the production process.

DoTanuki yokai · January 14

Yes I see it and I think it would be an insane work but they added the surface structure after the cuts :laughing:

January 14

1 hour ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Yes I see it and I think it would be an insane work but they added the surface structure after the cuts

Perhaps this is the famous Hoan 'acid etching' we read about? It would make sense.

By the way, I am very grateful for so many learned people contributing comments on my tsuba. It's nice to see that others appreciate its unique qualities in the same way I do.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to look and post their opinions!

January 15

Like many others here, I would also be highly interested to hear what Mr. Hallam @Ford Hallam thinks of the likely techniques used to create this tsuba.

Like everyone on this site, I greatly respect his expertise and knowledge.

Spartancrest · January 16

Found this one in the Princeton University Art Museum https://artmuseum.pr...ctions/objects/19891

It is signed but I can't make it out. y1930-96 94 mm Diam x 5 mm

Matsunoki · January 16

Having enjoyed another look at this tsuba I think the “texture” is quite simply old mild oxidation. (I hate the word rust) There are one or two areas where it looks as if it has bitten a wee bit deeper but imo it adds something to this piece.
Acid is of course another perfectly viable suggestion. Whatever…..the end result is a lovely tsuba.

Alex A · January 16

Nice tsuba,

To me, the lines remind me of Horimono, Bo-hi etc

So in that respect, would expect them to be done the same way.

But what do i know.

Curran · January 16

On 1/14/2024 at 5:20 PM, Simon R said:

Perhaps this is the famous Hoan 'acid etching' we read about? It would make sense.

No, the acid etching is quite something else.

Those are more muted, like this: https://www.choshuya.co.jp/senrigan/松樹騎馬菊水図鍔（鐔）　銘　法安/鍔/法安

[Ignore the price, as it several of us have spoken and think it is one of Choshuya's crazy overshoots. Sometimes Choshuya crazy undershoots too. Hence why I still follow them.]

ROKUJURO · January 16

5 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Found this one in the Princeton University Art Museum https://artmuseum.pr...ctions/objects/19891

It is signed but I can't make it out.

Could be MUTSU no JU KANEHARU

Bugyotsuji · January 17

Dale's Princeton example seems to be made with at least two different repeating patterns, a round file and three sharp inclined escarpments, to the centre line, then reversed for the other half. So rounded valley, sharp, sharp, sharp, round, sharp, sharp, sharp... etc.

Simon, would it be possible to get a silhouette shot or two of the mimi edge patterns of yours, from the sides?

January 17

4 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Dale's Princeton example seems to be made with at least two different repeating patterns, a round file and three sharp inclined escarpments, to the centre line, then reversed for the other half. So rounded valley, sharp, sharp, sharp, round, sharp, sharp, sharp... etc.

Simon, would it be possible to get a silhouette shot or two of the mimi edge patterns of yours, from the sides?

Certainly Piers,

Firstly the dimensions, as I haven't given those in past posts:

Height: 7.5 cm

Width: 7.4

Thickness: 4.75mm

It was frustratingly difficult trying to get decent shots in the remaining sunlight. And, for those who are horrified at me handling the tsuba without gloves, they can rest easy knowing I washed and dried my hands thoroughly beforehand - plus the tsuba already had a coating of Renaissance Wax. Just to be absolutely
sure, I used a clean, cotton cloth on it afterwards.

I forgot to mention before that it has what appears to be a sword strike on the edge (clearly visible in the photographs).

I love this detail as - not only does it prove it was used for the purpose it was created - but it also gives this otherwise almost perfect piece of art a distinct touch of 'wabi sabi'!

January 17

More:

January 17

Last shots in the encroaching dusk.

(I suddenly realised what Piers @Bugyotsuji was asking for. 🤦🏻‍♂️)

Bugyotsuji · January 17

Ah, now we’re talking! :thumbsup:

ROKUJURO · January 17

Ford Hallam was kind enough to reply to my e-mail. He wrote:

I have always considered these types of decoration to be filed actually. The structural texture of the iron can be brought out after filing and polishing by a long harsh patination process, or heating to produce scale which when removed with mild acid leaves a selectively eroded surface etc.

I understand the idea of embossing or chasing but I think maybe the force needed would then damage the other side each time.

Chiselling is certainly a possibility and maybe different groups had different approaches, almost impossible to be 100% (sure) on a photo alone but I think I’d use files to recreate this one myself

I was wrong in my assumption but have learned something, again!

January 17

3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

I have always considered these types of decoration to be filed actually. The structural texture of the iron can be brought out after filing and polishing by a long harsh patination process, or heating to produce scale which when removed with mild acid leaves a selectively eroded surface etc.

Many thanks for putting this to Mr Hallam directly, Jean.

So, it's filed (which is a relief as I don't have to change the title of this thread) and possibly finished with acid which is a Hoan school appraisal point. So far, so good.

Last year I decided not to put anything else in for shinsa, otherwise I may well have tried with this one.

Kurikata · January 17

Simon,

Hoan Sadanaga is listed in Haynes under reference H 07749.0 and its is mentioned a similar tsuba sold at Christies Auction in London (Nov. 15 1993) under N° 481 .

Good luck for your research

January 17

48 minutes ago, Kurikata said:

Simon,

Hoan Sadanaga is listed in Haynes under reference H 07749.0 and its is mentioned a similar tsuba sold at Christies Auction in London (Nov. 15 1993) under N° 481 .

Good luck for your research

Thank you so much for that!

January 17

DEAR TSUBA SPECIALISTS - NOW I NEED YOUR HELP IN FOLLOWING UP MY ONE LEAD ON THIS TSUBA'S MAKER!

Thanks to Bruno @Kurikata, I now know that he appears in

Robert Haynes

"The Index of Japanese Sword Fittings and Associated Artists"

Reference: H 07749.0

Sacrilege I know, but I do not possess a copy of Haynes' seminal work. Could someone please photograph the relevant entry and either post it on this thread or PM me?

Bruno also mentions a similar tsuba by the same artist sold by Christie's in 1993:

Below is the catalogue (No. 5078) if anybody has it.

(I'm also emailing Christie's directly but it's a long shot.)

Thank you!!!

Simon

Brian · January 17

This one?

January 17

19 minutes ago, Brian said:

This one?

You Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!!!

I owe you a beer, Brian 🍺

Steve Waszak · January 18

On 1/16/2024 at 6:24 AM, Curran said:

No, the acid etching is quite something else.

Those are more muted, like this: https://www.choshuya.co.jp/senrigan/松樹騎馬菊水図鍔（鐔）　銘　法安/鍔/法安

[Ignore the price, as it several of us have spoken and think it is one of Choshuya's crazy overshoots. Sometimes Choshuya crazy undershoots too. Hence why I still follow them.]

Interesting perspective. From my point of view, this tsuba at Choshuya (no-doubter Shodai Hoan) is significantly underpriced. I don't know that I'd call it a crazy undershot, but this tsuba could/should be more in the $10,000 - $12,000 range. I doubt this will last into February. I'd grab it immediately if I could.

January 18

Following up on Bruno @Kurikata and Brian's @Brian leads, I contacted Christie's London regarding the Sadanaga tsuba they sold back in 93.

Alas, money is apparently the only motivator nowadays - so I ended up registering with Christie's and asking them for an auction estimate on my tsuba, referencing the previous sale. So, let's see what they dig out when there's an auctioneer's fee at stake.

Matsunoki · January 18

4 hours ago, Simon R said:

So, let's see what they dig out when there's an auctioneer's fee at stake.

Sadly Simon I doubt they’ll have much of a clue. You might stand more chance with Bonhams in London….they at least handle a high volume of tsuba although again, their “estimates” are pretty meaningless based on very superficial knowledge. Usually the people who put stuff in their sales know more about it than their own “experts”.

January 19

16 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Sadly Simon I doubt they’ll have much of a clue. You might stand more chance with Bonhams in London….they at least handle a high volume of tsuba although again, their “estimates” are pretty meaningless based on very superficial knowledge. Usually the people who put stuff in their sales know more about it than their own “experts”.

To be honest, I expect as much, Colin.

The true purpose of this charade is to try and see the full description and photo of the tsuba in the 1993 auction.

I can't think of any other way.

January 23

Christie's reply

"Thank you for contacting Christie's regarding the possible sale of your property. Our specialists have carefully reviewed the information you kindly sent to us and have requested that I share with you their response. Based on the information provided, your property does not appear to fall into a property category or value level that Christie's currently handles for sale. For that reason, our specialists are not able to suggest an estimate or provide other information."

Ah well, worth a shot. 🤣

Jorgensen · January 23

I also have one of these tsuba with rippled surface. I believe theme depicts seashell and shallow water and have attributed this to Myochin.

Mei/signature: Mumei
School/province: Myochin
Period/age: Edo
Measures: 7,50 cm x 7.40 cm x 0.35 cm
Certificate: No

Soshin · February 3

On 1/11/2024 at 11:11 PM, Simon R said:

I am happy to report that the above tsuba is now owned by me. Here is link to my writeup about this exceptionally fine tsuba for any interested. I have always really liked tsuba made by the Hoan School.

Tsuba Gallery #3 | Tsuba Otaku

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