Ancient sword early 19th mei Suishinshi Mazahide

[Lionelb]

Hi,

 

I'm looking since few years to get an ancien Japonese sword. These last days, i have been presented a pretty nice sword which is dated from the early 19tc century and comes from an imperial family in Asia. The mei seems to be Suishinshi Mazahide. However, i am not a specialist and i don't know if its true mei or Gimei. The price asking is about 4000 Euros which seems high to me. The sword has some scratches and at least two pieces are missing, the little cloud to hand the handle and a element of decoration. I would like to have the opinion of the community.

Sorry for my approximative english, i do my best.

 

Regards,

 

Lionel B

 

Here are photos of the sword :

 

http://picasaweb.google.fr/lionelbar75/ ... directlink

[Chishiki]

Hi Lionel. I think the mei/signature is not correct. Also the koshirae/mounts are low quality. Only my opinion. Please wait for other opinions. Regards Mark

[Bruno]

Hi Lionel,

 

Looks like gimei?

 

I may be wrong.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Lionel,

Looks gimei; I don't think I'm wrong. 4,000 Euros would be inexpensive for a real Masahide.

You need to buy books, not blades. Study, study, study. Go to shows, ask to look at collections, do whatever it takes to learn something. Then you can buy a sword.

Grey

[Eric H]

For comparison

Eric

[Lionelb]

Hi Lionel,

Looks gimei; I don't think I'm wrong. 4,000 Euros would be inexpensive for a real Masahide.

You need to buy books, not blades. Study, study, study. Go to shows, ask to look at collections, do whatever it takes to learn something. Then you can buy a sword.

Grey

 

 

I know but the seller absolutly know nothing about swords, it's a woman who had the sword by the son of an asiatic emperor in exile who died recently, so regards to history, everything is possible, the price is hasardous.

 

Would it be possible that it's not Gimei but signature of a "disciple" of Masahide ?

 

Regards,

 

Lionel

[Nobody]

Before you go into a discussion about gimei, you should notice that a wrong kanji is used in his art name.

 

水心志 (Suishinshi)

[Grey Doffin]

Would it be possible that it's not Gimei but signature of a "disciple" of Masahide ?

No.

Grey

[Lionelb]

Hi Lionel,

Looks gimei; I don't think I'm wrong. 4,000 Euros would be inexpensive for a real Masahide.

You need to buy books, not blades. Study, study, study. Go to shows, ask to look at collections, do whatever it takes to learn something. Then you can buy a sword.

Grey

 

 

Hi Eric,

 

I found on the net Masahide' mei that are very différent from yours, so what to think ?

 

Here's the links :

 

http://www.nihonto.com.au/assets/images ... hide_1.jpg

http://www.nihonto.com.au/assets/images ... ___5_1.jpg

 

Regards,

 

Lionel

[Lionelb]

Before you go into a discussion about gimei, you should notice that a wrong kanji is used in his art name.

 

水心志 (Suishinshi)

 

What i don't understand is : how a blacksmith who wants to copy Masahide'Mei could use a wrong Kanji ? I have difficulties to admit that a Japanese blacksmith of the ealry 19tc century could make such a mistake, it seems to big. If the goal was to reproduce Masahide's mei, he could have made it correctly, no ?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Lionel, please focus one moment on the fact you're wondering about purchasing a signature and not a blade.

 

Does the blade resemble a genuine Masahide ? You can't tell and pictures are useless.

Has the blade fatal flaws ? You can't tell and pictures are useless.

 

Now add the hints already given : looks Gimei, wrong Kanji, poor mounting.

 

And ask yourself if the "exiled emperor" story has any link with real history.

 

Then, if you'r still eager to take the risk, buy the sword, send it to Shinsa and let us know.

 

Best wishes.

[Nobody]

Before you go into a discussion about gimei, you should notice that a wrong kanji is used in his art name.

 

水心志 (Suishinshi)

 

What i don't understand is : how a blacksmith who wants to copy Masahide'Mei could use a wrong Kanji ? I have difficulties to admit that a Japanese blacksmith of the ealry 19tc century could make such a mistake, it seems to big. If the goal was to reproduce Masahide's mei, he could have made it correctly, no ?

The seller or the faker would say “Who said that it was a genuine Masahide? I just sold a sword signed by 水心志 who may be another Masahide. ”.

[Eric H]

I found on the net Masahide' mei that are very différent from yours, so what to think ?

Masahide...there are various kinds of his signatures pattern with Kao or Kokuin (carved seal) and also different Nakago-jiri. That's exactly what I tried to show.

Eric

[Toryu2020]

Lionel et al -

I have to agree with you, a faker of the same era as Masahide would have examples of his signature to copy and would most likely do his best to copy a real Masahide. Also adding a date is a very bold act by a faker as it clearly sets the age the blade is supposed to have been made. Comparing your signature to Masahide's signatures from the Bunka era this does not even come close. So if this indeed says Suishinshi Masahide it is a lousy fake.

I would posit another theory, your theory in fact. Could this not be another smith? Perhaps a student of Masahide? Since the Go, Suishinshi does not match may be we are looking at the wrong smith. What about Masafusa? He worked at the same time, studied under Masahide. The Meikan gives no Go for him and I don't have other references for him handy but his family name was Shimizu (志水) this could easily be a play on his own name and his teachers name. The only dated works BTW are from Bunka 2. Might be interesting to look him up.

The blade is the thing, and it don't look good, could be the photos, it clearly needs some love not sure a little known student of Masahide in poor polish and untested condition is worth 4000 Euros...

-tom

[Eric H]

You need to buy books, not blades. Study, study, study. Go to shows, ask to look at collections, do whatever it takes to learn something. Then you can buy a sword.

Grey

Very first step, read Guido's article, highly recommended for everyone, I have just now done it again.

 

COLLECTING NIHONTO - WHAT, HOW AND WHO?

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/arti ... ecting.pdf

 

Eric

[Lionelb]

Hi Tom,

 

yes i don't think it can be a faker but it seems clear that its not Masahide. But your right, what matter is the blade. Firts thing, it need to be polish and it seems to be expensive. A will discuss again with the seller, i can make an offer for 1000 E and no more for this blade, but i don't think we will got through the selling. It doesn't matter because i learnt a lot with it and i am now strongly decided to find a good blade and to practice sword fighting (i already practiced martial arts and sometimes sword fighting with european swords "medieval fighting")

 

Regards,

 

Lionel

 

 

Lionel et al -

I have to agree with you, a faker of the same era as Masahide would have examples of his signature to copy and would most likely do his best to copy a real Masahide. Also adding a date is a very bold act by a faker as it clearly sets the age the blade is supposed to have been made. Comparing your signature to Masahide's signatures from the Bunka era this does not even come close. So if this indeed says Suishinshi Masahide it is a lousy fake.

I would posit another theory, your theory in fact. Could this not be another smith? Perhaps a student of Masahide? Since the Go, Suishinshi does not match may be we are looking at the wrong smith. What about Masafusa? He worked at the same time, studied under Masahide. The Meikan gives no Go for him and I don't have other references for him handy but his family name was Shimizu (志水) this could easily be a play on his own name and his teachers name. The only dated works BTW are from Bunka 2. Might be interesting to look him up.

The blade is the thing, and it don't look good, could be the photos, it clearly needs some love not sure a little known student of Masahide in poor polish and untested condition is worth 4000 Euros...

-tom

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

because i learnt a lot with it and i am now strongly decided to find a good blade and to practice sword fighting (i already practiced martial arts and sometimes sword fighting with european swords "medieval fighting")

 

Hi Lionel. Good blades are not for training. But this will be (hopefully) better explained by your Sensei on due time.

[Lionelb]

because i learnt a lot with it and i am now strongly decided to find a good blade and to practice sword fighting (i already practiced martial arts and sometimes sword fighting with european swords "medieval fighting")

 

Hi Lionel. Good blades are not for training. But this will be (hopefully) better explained by your Sensei on due time.

 

 

Yes i know... i have a boken since a few years..

 

Thanks everybody for your answers, hope to speak with you again soon.

 

Regards,

 

Lionel

[Justin]

Hi Lionel,

 

I also think this is gimei.

 

It looks shinto to me. I wouldn't bother with this blade if I were you. Even for 1,000 Euro you would be able to get something much better. By the time you purchase this, had the mei removed and had it polished you would be up for a considerable amount of money. I would buy something more modest in polish with a bit of activity and study that.

 

Good luck.