unusual kitae

[FlorianB]

Hello everybody,

I'm new to the NMB (though not new to the Nihonto).

As You can see on the picture below (poor quality, but I think You'll get the point) there's a small blade displaying all over a very remarkable but exceptional kitae. Obviously two steels of different carbon content are assembled and welded together. In addition there’s an itame-nagare hada. I was told the kitae resembles to western Wootz steel. However, it’s a Muromachi blade with a Hozon-paper attributing the dirk to Sue-Mino (although I dare to doubt the Mino origin...). Because of the small size, alteration and repeated polishing it seems obvious there’s no core steel.

 

Can anybody help me with some information about such a kitae and/or similar examples?

 

Florian B.

[FlorianB]

Maybe You get a better idea of this blade (and the proportion of the enlarged kitae above) by an additional complete view with measurements:

 

Florian B.

[Gunome]

Hi,

 

Because of the small size, alteration and repeated polishing it seems obvious there’s no core steel.

 

Your tanto is suriage, which explain the small size. I saw an uchi sori.

Regarding the hada, no idea.

 

Sebastien

[paulb]

Dear Florian,

In the absense of other responses I hope I can help a little. With Tanto it is not unusual for the blade to be made from one piece of steel, i.e. without a soft core. This can be seen on many welll polished early examples where the thickness is hugely reduced and there is no evidence of core steel showing. I remember one example shown here some years ago where the nakago looked "off-set" becauses so much steel had been removed fom one side of the blade. Still it showed attractive jigane. So I think (If I understand your point correctly) this is made from one piece.

Witrh regard to the sword itself I have never seen hada looking like this and have little idea how it could end up looking this way. I agree that it looks as though two different quality steels were used but I haveny seen an example like this before. I wonder if the appearance has been exagerated by the polish?

 

I am interested that you doubt the NBTHK attribution. I admit that mino would not spring o my mind either but then again nor would much else when trying to guess what it is. If the NBTHK see it as mino and I cant see what else it might be I think I would trust to their expertise.

What makes you think they are wrong?

[John A Stuart]

I can see the point about wootz. That Indian steel was made in small bloomeries similar to the tatara of Japan. Documentation shows wootz did make it to Japan, BTW. However the Damascus characteristics do not present here, ie., Mohammed's Ladder. Why does sue-Seki cause doubt? I seem to recall tanto late Muromachi/ Momoyama being mostly marugitae, so no shingane would show. John

[FlorianB]

Thanks for Your responses.

First, I'm aware of the fact, that the blade was altered. Because the lower hole is the original, accompanied by some higaki yasurime in the lower third of nakago, I think, the original length must be about 20 cm. The blade must have been broader, too.

Why not Mino? Well, the existence of dark steel, the nie-deki hamon without any togari (although a great amount of activities), pointed boshi, bo-utsuri - all these speak in my opinion against Mino. I assumed this blade may be Sue-Naminohira (ok, the bo-utsuri doesn't fit). However - these are my personal considerations.

 

Finally, I do not doubt NBTHK-papers in general but in this special case I think because of the dating there's someone quick at hand with a Sue-Mino-attribution. Further studies are needed...

 

Florian B.

[Eric H]

I was told the kitae resembles to western Wootz steel.

Generally speaking and also previously mentioned oriental Damascus-steel in some aspects differs notably from Japanese sword-steel. The pattern of Damascus-steel is produced by etching.

Eric

[Hector_A]

First time i've seen a hada like this but it makes me think of something i read.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/diary.html

 

The first article talks about Aoe's spotted steel or namazu-hada (a rough jinie steel and a fine jinie steel appears as a spotted surface)

 

no pics to compare

 

Just an idea,

 

Hector

[Ted Tenold]

It's unusually granular in appearance. Reminds me of this.

[FlorianB]

Hector,

nice try, but namazu-hada or sumigane made by Aoe is a completly different hada. Look at some pictures on the Usagiya site You mentioned: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sword14.html

Florian B

[paulb]

just for comparison

below is an example of Aoe hada from a Chu-Aoe blade dated to the end of the Kamakura period

[Mark Green]

Very cool loking hada.

Could it be Meteorite? Lots of nickel content.

[Ted Tenold]

Mark,

 

What about the image is demonstrating there is high nickle content?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

... heck ...

 

Effectively there are types of crucible steel (wootz) that have a small "watering" (pattern), but AFAIK they are persian and not indian and this looks as noone I've seen before, and I've seen more then a few.

It can be rised the exception it's possibly made from a bar of wootz/part of (indo)persian blade that has partially lost the "watering" pattern due to Yakihire process, but I don't think it's possible.

 

I wonder about mentioned utsuri being real or rather related to Saiha. If it hadn't been sent to Shinsa it could have been said it's just all Shingane, well forged but exposed in the whole blade (that looks completely re-shaped) by too many polishes also considering the position of the original mekugiana that suggests an even wider (and larger?) blade then the wider present-day part, with pattern highligted by polish and/or photos. But this answer too doesn't completely convince me. :? .

 

Small Persian watering for comparison :

 

[Mark Green]

Ted, I'm not sure that there is any nickel in the tanto. Just that Meteorites have a bunch of very hard nickel, usualy. I was just making a wild guess as to what it was, as I have never seen a hada like that as well????

Just what it 'could' be. Though very unlikely.

I have owned a couple swords that I was told were a combo of nanbam/ triditional, that had a lot of these very shiny dark spots in the hada. My best guess is that it would be something like that. Or mayby recycled sword steel of some kind?

It is very interesting.

Mark

[Eric H]

The pic at first, magnified by factor 3 together with the unnatural displayed dark hada and the accentuated spots has given cause for uncommon speculations, perhaps leading to wrong conclusions. The second pic in almost real dimensions is a better basis for survey, although the thickness of the mune is not specified.

my four cents worth

Eric

[FlorianB]

Eric,

of course You’re right. The comparision between the pictures of the enlarged blade and the persian blade does not work properly.

By the way: moto-kasane 0,6 cm.

Florian

[Tokaido]

Hi,

here you can see a Naotane sword with a VERY similar effekt in the jihada!

http://www.seiyudo.com/assets/galleries ... 1-950a.jpg

So we find at least three swords made bei Rai Kunitsugu, Sue-Seki and Naotane showing the same effect

 

Greetings

Andreas

[Eric H]

here you can see a Naotane sword with a VERY similar effekt in the jihada!

I believe you are an experienced collector, how do you specify this hada in terms of Nihonto-hada ? This example has surely the exact explanation of this type of hada included. As everybody knows, Naotane mastered all styles, i.e Soshu, Bizen, Yamato and Mino of sword-smithing.

Eric

[Tokaido]

Hi Eric,

thank you for the flowers

 

I have no provable idea, yet.

I have handled 4 blades with this effect and seen another one on photos (above mentioned Naotane). That's pretty few compared with the many blades I have seen in Japan and Europa.

 

Greetings

Andreas

[FlorianB]

Hello Andreas,

 

thanks for this very interesting picture of Naotane's Tanto. The kitae looks indeed very similar! Though I checked informations about Naotane, alas, I haven't found anything mentioned concerning such jigane. As Eric points out, Naotane reproduced different styles, but I'm puzzled just more over the connection between my late Muromachi kitae and a Shin-Shinto-kitae.

At least I'm appeased that such kitae, although unusual, could be found occasionally on Japanese blades even on high quality ones like the mentioned Rai Kunitsugu and this magnificent Naotane.

 

FlorianB