16 petal chrysanthemum tsuba

[Okan]

Another very interesting one. It belongs to a friend. I couldn’t figure out the mei, but my gut says it should have been on an important sword.

[Steve Waszak]

Okan,

 

These last two tsuba you have posted, and the second in particular, remind me of the "San Diego tsuba" that were recovered from the wreck of a Spanish ship on its way to the Philippines in the year 1600.  If you search around the Internet, you'll find some interesting information on this.  Jim Gilbert's blog post (Tsuba Kansho) on these tsuba is enlightening, especially since there is a reference to molds uncovered from an early-Edo Period site in Nara.  These molds are thought to have been used to cast tsuba in soft metal, such as bronze and yamagane.  Your tsuba above appears to be cast, based on certain details such as the mei and the kiku punch marks around the nakago-ana.  

[Dan tsuba]

So Okan, here is the link that Steven was referring to on the San Diego Tsuba.

Scroll down somewhat and you will find it.

https://tsubakansho.com/tag/cast/

In the upper right-hand corner of the picture shown under San Diego Tsuba, you will see a 16 petal chrysanthemum tsuba.

Then in the other pictures, you will be able to discern pieces of molds that appear to have a kiku (chrysanthemum) motif.

Don't get me started if those molds were used for soft metal or cast iron!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc (I crack myself up!).

Onward!

 

[Okan]

1 hour ago, Steve Waszak said:

Okan,

 

These last two tsuba you have posted, and the second in particular, remind me of the "San Diego tsuba" that were recovered from the wreck of a Spanish ship on its way to the Philippines in the year 1600.  If you search around the Internet, you'll find some interesting information on this.  Jim Gilbert's blog post (Tsuba Kansho) on these tsuba is enlightening, especially since there is a reference to molds uncovered from an early-Edo Period site in Nara.  These molds are thought to have been used to cast tsuba in soft metal, such as bronze and yamagane.  Your tsuba above appears to be cast, based on certain details such as the mei and the kiku punch marks around the nakago-ana.  

 

Hi Steve,

 

I don't know but you are most likely right. I have read everything about San Diego wreck and conducted extensive research on shipwreck tsuba, as I’ve encountered them(iron) before. - But thanks for sharing. 

[Iekatsu]

Hard to say if the Mei has been stamped or cast.

 

Just a reminder that Yamagane as far as my research has shown was not used for casting, when it looks like Yamagane it is always bronze.

[ROKUJURO]

As far as I know, bronze (a copper-tin alloy) was not used for TSUBA-making. Bronze is always a cast metal, and copper has to be cast as well in a raw shape. Infos by Ford Hallam

[Iekatsu]

13 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

As far as I know, bronze (a copper-tin alloy) was not used for TSUBA-making. Bronze is always a cast metal, and copper has to be cast as well in a raw shape. Infos by Ford Hallam

Bronze was definitely used to make Tsuba, they were cast using molds, like the examples found in the Nara site mentioned by Steve above. Every Kagami-shi Tsuba I have had tested is Bronze in composition. 

 

Yamagane/copper was not used to cast Tsuba, the properties mean that it would not flow sufficiently into a mold, however Yamagane/copper was used to cast blanks for making Tsuba, by dropping molten Yamagane/copper into water, as demonstrated by Ford and documented on Youtube.
 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Thomas,

you are correct, the mirror-makers used also bronze. With "cast in a raw shape" I meant exactly the casting of copper ingots for TSUBA making in water. YAMAGANE is also likely to produce voids if cast in a mold.

[Curran]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:32 PM, thutson said:

Interesting thread, Kiku is certianly a very popular theme for tsuba.

 

Here is one of mine, a Ko-Kinko Yamagane Kiku-Gata tsuba with 28 petals, which dates to the mid Muromachi period.

 

Tom

 

Ooh-la-la    Nice.  I have a similar 1500s shakudo one, presumably for uchigatana.

I love these with the earlier hitsu ana.

[Curran]

I am joining this thread a little late.

Chrysanthemums have been a theme I have enjoyed over the years. Had quite a few of all types.

Some very valuable (Hikozo). Some not so expensive.

 

My favorite iron 16 petal iron chrysanthemum tsuba.

Not easy to tell, but this one is a bit concave.

[Bugyotsuji]

(Joining Curran.)
Fairly large iron 24-petal chrysanthemum tachi(?) tsuba. Sold as daishō, but they are not exactly identical. 

[Mark S.]

Remembered I had this 16-petal one in the mix.  Came off a mismatched very poor koshirae.  I know nothing about it and really never gave it much thought.  

[Steves87]

Like the post from Curran, this Tsuba is also concave both sides (Hoiteibara)

[ROKUJURO]

Stephen,

that is an interesting one with an obviously added (= fire-welded) HITSU-ANA! Cool!

[Steves87]

5 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Stephen,

that is an interesting one with an obviously added (= fire-welded) HITSU-ANA! Cool!

Thank Jean, that is exactly why I went for it!

It is hard to see from the image, but both Hitsu-ana are added in the same way.

[GRC]

Love the added hitsu-ana on that thick one @Steves87

 

All these sukashi kiku tsuba are great examples of late Muromachi-early Edo period tsuba. 

That is clearly the window of time that they came into being, not earlier, and they were very popular throughout that time frame.

There's absolutely no evidence to suggest they were made earlier than that... just pie in the sky theory.