16 petal chrysanthemum tsuba

[Spartancrest]

Well I think these 12,14,16 etc. petal kiku are just not trying hard enough - one of mine has 32 petals so is that twice as good? 

Waka size 74 x 68 x 4 mm  100g  - Impossible to tell its age but it has a very old feel to it. [The image is lightened, it is much darker in real life]

The imperial Chrysanthemum is misleading as it shows 16 petals prominently but there are another 16 hidden at the back with just the tips showing. 

https://aminoapps.co...Mpoo0kKz7aL0NoLEmjDe

[1kinko]

It has an old feel to it? But do you get vibes from it?

[FlorianB]

Yes, there are kamon associated with the imperial family.

 

And yes, there are reams of tsuba in numerous kikugata shapes available for all who wanted one. Tsubako were inspired by forms, created fashion, copied other works - at least to sell their products. That’s why so different styles and qualities were produced. The chrysantemum shape is first of all just no more than a common decoration on the rim of Tsuba.

 

So in my eyes it is very speculative to connect the kikugata with the emperor and his relatives.

 

Wearing a crown I become not a member of the royal family (not even Freddy Mercury)!

 

Best,
Florian

[Steves87]

I love to drop the odd pic in, every now and then. I have a couple of Kiku guards, but here is one I have been asked to add as it is a 12 petal example, not too different to those referred to as San Diego Tsuba.

[Spartancrest]

9 hours ago, 1kinko said:

But do you get vibes from it?

Yes, but I took a pill and it seems to have settled -

[Dan tsuba]

So, my friends.

 

I would like to clarify something.

 

I agree with many of you that in my initial post to this thread I had stated an incorrect conclusion.

 

On a later post to this thread, (taking into account all the great posts from members) I adjusted my initial premise.  I quote that post here-

 

“So, to quote what you asked me-

 

“So Dan, what you seem to be driving at is that the tsuba in your possession could only have been owned by someone within - or closely associated with - the Japanese imperial family because of the 16 petal design.

Is that correct?”

 

No, my friend, that is not correct!  At first, I thought that my 16 petal kiku tsuba could have been used by someone closely associated with the imperial family because the 16 petal kiku mon could only be used by the imperial family.  But I was wrong (again!), although it continued my line of inquiry and investigation into the 16 petal kiku tsuba.

 

I also discovered that the 14 petal kiku mon (tsuba?) was used by the imperial princes.

 

Could some (or a few) extant 16 petal and 14 petal kiku tsuba have been used by the imperial family or someone closely associated with them?

 

I think “yes”.  I think that is a definite possibility and not completely unrealistic.

 

However, how can one tell if it was used by the imperial family (or someone associated with them) or who used it?  There is probably no way to confirm any such thing!

 

The 16 (and 14) petal kiku tsuba are just another interesting area in the adventure of tsuba collecting!

 

With respect,

Dan”

 

Anyway, it seems that this thread has generated some interest in the kiku type tsuba.  Hey, I think that is a good thing!

 

With respect,

Dan

[ROKUJURO]

There are KIKU design TSUBA with widely differing numbers of petals.

I got mine from the TENNO when we performed KARAOKE together.  

Garanteed free of vibes

 

[Steves87]

A ten? (I noticed Jean has a ten also)

[Andi B.]

Hi, I can contribute with this Kiku (?) tsuba.

But I found a picture of a similar piece with a rim so I assume it was removed on mine...

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I know this is somewhat off topic, but I just wanted to share!

 

This is a copper tsuba in my collection.

 

Chrysanthemums all around!  Hurrah!!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Guest Simon R]

7 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello all!

 

I know this is somewhat off topic, but I just wanted to share!

 

This is a copper tsuba in my collection.

 

Chrysanthemums all around!  Hurrah!!

 

With respect,

Dan

I can't see it myself. 🤔

It looks like paper umbrellas in a Takarazuka Revue lineup - or possibly a circle of simian mammaries?

[FlorianB]

Obviously pines - short stems at the axes, tufts of needles arranged circular.

No relationship to the imperial family !

 

Florian

[Dan tsuba]

Yes, Florian

 

You are correct and I was wrong!  I thought they represented chrysanthemums, but they represent pines like you stated -

 

"Obviously pines - short stems at the axes, tufts of needles arranged circular."

 

This morning, I saw a similiar tsuba being sold in Japan that described the motif as pine.  That led me to an internet search and there was another tsuba with similar motif also described as pine.

 

So, I learned something new (again).  Hurrah!

 

With respect,

Dan

[jct3602]

Thought you might like the following - 17 petal, with the upper one on one side altered from 17 to 18 petals.  The theory my teacher had was this was an Imperial reward to Mori Motonari, who financed the Imperial ascension ceremonies around 1560, and the one mon altered to 18 petals was to show no assumption of imperial dignities or ongoing rights to use the imperial mon which was granted by the Emperor he aided.  That alteration, 2 petals removed and 3 inserted, was certainly done after the original creation of the tsuba.  Markus Sesko says that the 17 petal was an urba legend.  Unfortunately, the reverse side was too large, so I will try to diminish it, or at least the altered portion, in a follow up.

[jct3602]

Follow-up picture of alteration.  Full tsuba on side with the one alteration is over 3mb.

 

John Twineham

[Guest Simon R]

Dan,

 

This thread/article by the late, great Nick Komiya helps explain the symbolism of the chrysanthemum.

Particularly interesting is the fact that it was stamped onto Meiji period rifles to stop troops from discarding their weapon when they ran away (a common occurrence apparently)! With the chrysanthemum in situ, such an action would have been a grave and direct personal insult to the Emperor.

This would suggest that, in so far as the chrysanthemum's imperial symbolism, it was almost certainly showing an open allegiance to the Emperor rather than any familial connections to him.

 

 https://www.warrelic...ing-sun-star-598541/

[Mark S.]

A few of mine.  Bright Sun is great for seeing detail, but washes the color out a bit and makes them look dry.  Sorry

 

 

[thutson]

Interesting thread, Kiku is certianly a very popular theme for tsuba.

 

Here is one of mine, a Ko-Kinko Yamagane Kiku-Gata tsuba with 28 petals, which dates to the mid Muromachi period.

 

Tom

[EdWolf]

Here is one of mine, a ko kinko tsuba.

[DRDave]

Although I have very few tsuba, one is Kiku.  Perhaps due to their popularity/abundance?

 

[Soshin]

Here is a favorite Kiku tsuba of mine I traded to Skip Holbrook for a NBTHK papered Higo Kinko tsuba  a few years ago. The size was exceptionally large, and the iron was extremely nice and had a great feel in hand. It measures 10.3 cm (4.1 inches) wide by 10.4 cm (4.01 inches) high.  It is 6.6 mm (0.3 inches) at the rim and gently thins toward the middle.
  

Edited January 25, 2024 by Soshin
Added measurements.

[Spartancrest]

I have one even bigger. [where have I heard that before? ]

A bit rough and ready. [I have heard that before too! ]

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

I think this would run as 'manhole cover' in Japan.....

Do they make KIRIBAKO for such a large one or do you use a Pizza delivery cardboard box? 

[Spartancrest]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

I think this would run as 'manhole cover' in Japan.....

Jean, I think it might have been used for a shower floor waste cover - that would explain the rust. [and the hair and dirt that was on it!] 

   They had bigger drains in the Edo period!    

 

It is on a stand in my lounge room - I like to watch the spiders build their webs in it - it keeps the flies down.  

[ZH1980]

Reading old posts and came across this thread. Here is a fairly typical 16-petal chrysanthemum style tsuba from my collection.  
 

Happy New Year!

[Spartancrest]

What significance does only a partial outline have? [image is very overexposed, the metal is Yamagane]  other is from Amazon [Obious copy of the Umetada design]

     

  http://nihonto.us/UMETADA TSUBA A.htm

A classic Umetada chrysanthemum and a sukashi flower through a amida yasuri plate.  Granular tekotsu.  7.5 cm x 7.43 cm x 5.4 mm. 

 

 

[Steves87]

I have this one with a Shakudo Fukerin... I notice there are a few others with the flat mimi in the thread... Iam wondering if a flat mimi makes the theme a Buddhist wheel, or we can still say it is Chrysanthemum?

[ROKUJURO]

Stephen,

 

to me, this one looks like a wheel motif, one of later type, not Buddhist or HEIAN JIDAI cart-wheel. A FUKURIN is always a nice addition!

[Steve Waszak]

Here are a pair of sword guards made by (Shodai) Kawaguchi Hoan in kikugata:

 

1.  16-petals, matsukawabishi sukashi with sukidashibori featuring kiri-mon, finished in light yakite-kusarashi (signed "Hoan" on the ura).  Momoyama Period.  

 

2.  24 petals, two gourds inlaid, one in gold, one in silver.  This tsuba is noteworthy for the large nakago-ana present in a relatively small guard.  The other tsuba included here is larger than this one, but with a substantially smaller nakago-ana.  Momoyama Period.  

 

[Okan]

Here is a 28..Momoyama probably but I'm not sure.