16 petal chrysanthemum tsuba

[Dan tsuba]

So, I have seen many chrysanthemum (known as “kiku” in Japan) type tsuba with different designs. 

 

The one I have in my collection is a fairly common design on tsuba.

 

However, my tsuba has 16 petals that make up the kiku.

 

I have read that the 16 petal kiku is the symbol of the Imperial family of Japan and

 

“Only the Imperial family is allowed to use the 16-petal chrysanthemum crest on it tea cups, towels and other items.”

https://factsanddeta.../sub111/item586.html

 

Also,” Earlier in Japanese history, when Emperor Go-Daigo, who tried to break the power of the shogunate in 1333, was exiled, he adopted the seventeen-petalled chrysanthemum in order to differentiate himself from the Northern Court's Emperor Kōgon, who kept the imperial 16-petalled mon.“

https://en.wikipedia...perial_Seal_of_Japan

 

I am wondering if the 16 petal kiku tsuba I have was used by a member, retainer, or someone associated with the Imperial family?

 

I am thinking that if the 16 petal kiku tsuba was used by anyone else other than with someone associated with the Imperial family, than it would be a taboo thing to do and there probably would be some kind of penalty (especially in the old days of Japan)?

 

Anyway, just another interesting thought!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

It's like mon. Towards the end of Edo and Meiji, anyone was using anything.
How many fittings have you seen with the Aoi mon?

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Brian,

 

What you stated is interesting!  And yes, I have seen many tsuba with the Aoi mon!

And I agree with you that "Towards the end of Edo and Meiji, anyone was using anything."

 

Unfortunately without a mei on the 16 petal kiku piece shown in my post,  its age would be difficult to determine.  So Meiji, Edo, Muromachi, who knows!

 

With respect,

Dan
 

[SteveM]

kiki  kiku

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Steve for the clarification and assistance!

 

I edited and hopefully changed all "kiki" to "kiku".

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

Don't go breaking my heart - nothing wrong with "Kiki" 

  

[Dan tsuba]

O.K. members.  Kiki dee (thanks Spartancrest-that video is hilarious!), or kiku dee.  I don’t think Elton John collected tsuba!!

 

Whatever!

 

So, let’s take what we know and put that together with human nature (which really hasn’t changed that much through the ages – my opinion!).

 

We know that some samurai had many tsuba that they used on the same sword (I know I read that somewhere but can’t recall the reference!).

 

Now, let us say that a samurai that is attached to the royal or Imperial household is preparing to go into battle.

 

Would he use a beautiful tsuba that he displays on his sword for official or court appearances and use that tsuba to go into battle with?

 

I don’t think so!

 

He might use a simple and strong tsuba on his sword that still shows his allegiance and affiliation with the royal family.

 

Such as the "simple” 16 petal kiku tsuba in my previous post.

 

My good friends, it’s not rocket science!  If given the same situation, what tsuba would you use on your battle sword that would still show that you are attached and have allegiance to the royal (or Imperial) family?

 

Would you use a beautiful hand carved or decorated (and is signed by the artist) tsuba that cost a small fortune and everyone at court “wows” over it, or a comparatively simple and relatively inexpensive and functional tsuba that will “do the job” and still shows by the mon on the tsuba who you represent and are fighting for!

 

Hmm!!!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

I don’t think Elton John collected tsuba!!

Sir Elton John: ‘I collect for the beauty, not the value. I’m in awe of these things’ 

https://www.theguard...e-modern-radical-eye

 

How is that for a quote! - taken completely out of context, but a nice sentiment to aspire to. 

 

On the other part of the serious discussion, would the said Samurai not replace the entire koshirae?  A beautiful lacquer saya is bound to get damaged and would the tsuka for "town & court" be ideal for battle? Or could the samurai have a separate "battle sword" already mounted and ready to go? I have no idea how they managed to work it out, I guess it would depend on how much notification time they had?

[Brian]

Imho, there is next to zero chance this has anything to do with the Imperial family. We have seen countless tsuba over the years with symbolic imagery that have nothing to do with royalty. Aoi mon, kiku, and just about every other mon shown on tsuba are just themes, there is zero collaboration of this theory.

[Brian]

http://jameelcentre....0/EA_X_11165-a-L.jpg

https://www.espace4....r-japon1-462x347.jpg
https://varshavskyco...18/01/TSU-0346-a.jpg

 

 

[Brian]

This one is confirmed as Mid Edo Jingo and Kiku theme. No relation to the Imperial family

 

 

[Guest Simon R]

Optimism is a fine quality in moderation.

[Soshin]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

This one is confirmed as Mid Edo Jingo and Kiku theme. No relation to the Imperial family

 

 

 

Thanks @Brian for sharing I really like that tsuba. I agree with Ito's call that it is the work of the third generation Jingo. The iron and treatment of the surface reminds me of a tsuba in my collection that the previous owner attributed to the third generation Jingo. My tsuba is signed (Jingo 甚吾). It doesn't have a chrysanthemum, so I am not going to post it.    

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Brian, for those links that show some nice examples of 16 petal kiku tsuba!

 

Although, I do have a question that relates to this mon type tsuba.

 

As stated in my first post on this thread-

 

Also,” Earlier in Japanese history, when Emperor Go-Daigo, who tried to break the power of the shogunate in 1333, was exiled, he adopted the seventeen-petalled chrysanthemum in order to differentiate himself from the Northern Court's Emperor Kōgon, who kept the imperial 16-petalled mon.“

 

And “I am thinking that if the 16 petal kiku tsuba was used by anyone else other than with someone associated with the Imperial family, than it would be a taboo thing to do and there probably would be some kind of penalty (especially in the old days of Japan)?”

 

Not that a samurai that meets another samurai (who has a kiku tsuba on his sword) is going to stop him in the street and count the other guy's petals on his kiku tsuba!

 

But does anyone know if using a mon on a tsuba that did not belong to the owner’s family clan would be a cause of concern for another samurai?

Thanks!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

[Soshin]

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Also,” Earlier in Japanese history, when Emperor Go-Daigo, who tried to break the power of the shogunate in 1333, was exiled, he adopted the seventeen-petalled chrysanthemum in order to differentiate himself from the Northern Court's Emperor Kōgon, who kept the imperial 16-petalled mon.“

 

Hi Dan,

 

I only think it would have been an issue during or shortly after the Nanbokucho Period (~1333-1392 CE). During the late Edo Period (early to mid 1800s CE) some >400 years later, I don't think it would have been such an important detail. Studying the separate sword fittings and whole Koshirae of samurai who were historically documented as having directly served the Imperial Family for Kiku Mon motifs and its variations would be an interesting bit of research. This would need to be narrowly focused study as the shogun technically speaking served the emperor and by extension all the many (hatamoto 旗本) samurai commanded by the Tokugawa shogunate. With that said I really agree with @Brian without some type of direct historically documented evidence. The design motif on tsuba which is common itself is not enough.               

[Dan tsuba]

Hello David!

 

Thanks for the information in your excellent post!

 

Oh well, I was digging around on the internet again (hey, I am retired and have nothing else better to do -ha, ha, ha, etc!) and found some interesting articles and links.  I have included parts of the articles below and the links.

 

“THE USE OF KAMON AMONG THE SAMURAI AND THE NOBILITY

The kamon is an example of the culture of Japan itself, which has been used to this day. One kamon was created to represent the identity of a family, clearly revealing the family name of its owner.

Later, the samurai and the nobility made use of these coats of arms. Each group consists of a representative coat of arms and its variations. Eventually, they spread and were used in tombs, furniture, and ships.

“It was natural for coats of arms to be placed on weapons as katana and kacchu However, although there were no limitations, the unrestricted use of coats of arms of other families often caused friction.

Especially when using the coat of arms of a higher class, such as a daimyo or shogun created more friction. So there was an unstated rule to avoid using the crest that was already used by the high-class clan or family as much as possible.”

From-

https://skdesu.com/e...n-clan-crest-emblem/ 

 

Also- (which I think is the above article re-stated)

“Spread of use of Kamon among Samurai and the Nobility

It can be said that Kamon is an example of Japan's own culture which has been in use up to the present day. A Kamon was created to serve as an unique emblem that represented a family's identity, clearly revealing the family name of its owner. Later, Buke (samurai warriors) and Kuge (the nobility) made use of Kamon, which are classified into some groups according to blood line or historical origin. Each group consists of representative Kamon and their variations. Kamon spread widely and were used on even graves, furniture, and ships. It was natural for Kamon to be placed on weapons like Samurai Sword (Katana) and Samurai armor (Kacchu). However, although there were no limitations placed upon usage, freely using other family's Kamon caused friction or conflict. Especially using Kamon of a higher class, such as Daimyo (Japanese feudal lord) or Shogun (general) created more friction. Hence, there was an unspoken rule to avoid using the Kamon that is already used by high class clan or family as much as possible.”

From-

https://doyouknowjapan.com/symbols/            

 

So, from the above quote from the article it seems like the use of the 16-petal kuku (kamon ) tsuba could possibly cause “friction or conflict”!  

 

Also-

“Samurai Family Crest "Kamon" (家紋)

Kamon is the emblems used to identify a family. The roots of Kamon is a noble class in Heian period. They put a mark on their oxcart to distinguish between own family and others. When Samurai appeared in Japanese history, then Kamon were used as a mark to distinguish between own troops and others. At the same time, Kamon emblems were used for showing the dignity of the samurai by putting them on the samurai armors and samurai katana swords. Kamon became the essential part of samurai culture.”

From-

https://doyouknowjapan.com/samurai/   

 

And one more (couldn’t print it out-so just summarized it!)  

   

The below article refers to how kamon were used by even the commoners and merchants in Japan and how certain mon belonging to the imperial family and certain clans could not be used by commoners.

From-

https://www.nippon.c...n/Japan-data/h01578/

 

So, perhaps the 16 petal kiku tsuba was used by commoners?  Or perhaps the 16 petal kiku tsuba could only be used by those attached in some way to the Imperial family or household?

 

Who knows?

 

Just some more interesting stuff!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

[Soshin]

Thanks @Dan tsuba I agree. Some really intresting articles you linked with helpful information. Here is a tsuba with many famous family crests that are only partially visible on the tsuba. These family crests include the Oda (right), Toyotomi (left), and the Imperial Family (bottom right). The imperial Family is repeated on the other side in the (upper left). The tsuba was previously talked about on NMB because of the Japanese weasel design also on the tsuba on the side not shown. It has NTHK papers that date the tsuba to the early Edo Period circa early to mid 1600s CE. Better photos and more information can be found here: Tsuba Gallery #10 | Tsuba Otaku. It is the third tsuba from the top of the webpage. I still really enjoy this odd ball tsuba.  

 

  

 

   

[Dan tsuba]

My friend David,

 

From one martial artist to another-

Osu!!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Guest Simon R]

This is one of mine. 
I think the samurai (or merchant) who wore it must have been the son of an 'professional lady' and didn't know who his father was. (At least he managed to narrow it down to only seven guys.)

[Dan tsuba]

Well, here Is an interesting kiku tsuba that I found on an old thread on the forum!

 

What I find interesting about this particular tsuba is that there are two different kiku mon.

 

The omote (?) has a 16 petal kiku mon and the ura (?) has a 12 petal kiku mon.

 

The thread also gives some insightful information into the Jingo school.

 

“Jingo tsuba” 

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/10455-jingo-tsuba/

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!  So some more interesting stuff (at least I think so!).

 

So, I have a book titled “Handbook of Designs and Motifs” introduction by P.K. Thomajan, Tudor Publishing Company, 1950.  It shows nearly 7000 kamon!

 

Just quickly flipping through the book I found kiku kamon with 10,12,14,16,17,18,20, and 27 petals!

 

Then, I was back on the internet and found some more interesting stuff (the “NOTES” section below is very interesting, but in the explanation given– I can’t figure out what “SCA” stands for). 

 

From-

 

https://mon.xavid.us...uble%20Chyrsanthemum

 

Double Chyrsanthemum

 

Kanji	十六八重菊
Transliteration	Jyūroku yae kiku
Translation	Sixteen-petaled doubled chrysanthemum
Date	1333
Owner	Various emperors
Blazon	Argent, a doubled sixteen-petaled chrysanthemum sable.
Categories	Plant: Chrysanthemum (16), Color: Yellow on White
Notes	This is one of the few mon with restricted usage in period; it was the mon of the Emperor, and was only used as he commanded. Other similar mon are presumptuous for SCA use, as they imply imperial connections: for example, the back of a 14-petaled chrysanthemum was used by imperial princes, and Emperor Go Daigo used a 17-petaled version when exiled. Mon combining the chrysanthemum with other elements are more reasonable, signifying loyalty to the Emperor rather than a connection to him.
Sources	“Imperial Seal of Japan”. Wikipedia. Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Heraldry. Osprey Publishing, 2002. pg. 6. Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Heraldry. Osprey Publishing, 2002. pg. 57. “Imperial Seal of Japan.svg”. Wikimedia Commons. (for image) “菊花紋章”. Japanese Wikipedia. (for Japanese)

And also, this from-

https://mon.xavid.us...etal%20Chrysanthemum

 

 

16-petal Chrysanthemum

 

Kanji	十六菊
Transliteration	Jyūroku kiku
Translation	16 chrysanthemum
Date	1185
Owner	Emperor Antoku
Blazon	Guels, a sixteen-petaled chrysanthemum argent.
Categories	Plant: Chrysanthemum (16), Color: White on Red
Sources	Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Heraldry. Osprey Publishing, 2002. pg. A fig. 2.

 

Like I stated above, just some more interesting stuff!

 

It also seems that the 16 petal kiku mon (tsuba?) could not be used by everyone (or am I just interpreting all this stuff incorrectly-which is always a possibility!)?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Guest Simon R]

8 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello all!  So some more interesting stuff (at least I think so!).

 

So, I have a book titled “Handbook of Designs and Motifs” introduction by P.K. Thomajan, Tudor Publishing Company, 1950.  It shows nearly 7000 kamon!

 

Just quickly flipping through the book I found kiku kamon with 10,12,14,16,17,18,20, and 27 petals!

 

Then, I was back on the internet and found some more interesting stuff (the “NOTES” section below is very interesting, but in the explanation given– I can’t figure out what “SCA” stands for). 

 

From-

 

https://mon.xavid.us...uble%20Chyrsanthemum

 

Double Chyrsanthemum

 

Kanji	十六八重菊
Transliteration	Jyūroku yae kiku
Translation	Sixteen-petaled doubled chrysanthemum
Date	1333
Owner	Various emperors
Blazon	Argent, a doubled sixteen-petaled chrysanthemum sable.
Categories	Plant: Chrysanthemum (16), Color: Yellow on White
Notes	This is one of the few mon with restricted usage in period; it was the mon of the Emperor, and was only used as he commanded. Other similar mon are presumptuous for SCA use, as they imply imperial connections: for example, the back of a 14-petaled chrysanthemum was used by imperial princes, and Emperor Go Daigo used a 17-petaled version when exiled. Mon combining the chrysanthemum with other elements are more reasonable, signifying loyalty to the Emperor rather than a connection to him.
Sources	“Imperial Seal of Japan”. Wikipedia. Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Heraldry. Osprey Publishing, 2002. pg. 6. Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Heraldry. Osprey Publishing, 2002. pg. 57. “Imperial Seal of Japan.svg”. Wikimedia Commons. (for image) “菊花紋章”. Japanese Wikipedia. (for Japanese)

And also, this from-

https://mon.xavid.us...etal%20Chrysanthemum

 

 

16-petal Chrysanthemum

 

Kanji	十六菊
Transliteration	Jyūroku kiku
Translation	16 chrysanthemum
Date	1185
Owner	Emperor Antoku
Blazon	Guels, a sixteen-petaled chrysanthemum argent.
Categories	Plant: Chrysanthemum (16), Color: White on Red
Sources	Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Heraldry. Osprey Publishing, 2002. pg. A fig. 2.

 

Like I stated above, just some more interesting stuff!

 

It also seems that the 16 petal kiku mon (tsuba?) could not be used by everyone (or am I just interpreting all this stuff incorrectly-which is always a possibility!)?

 

With respect,

Dan

So Dan, what you seem to be driving at is that the tsuba in your possession could only have been owned by someone within - or closely associated with - the Japanese imperial family because of the 16 petal design.
Is that correct?

 

[Brian]

You're treating a tsuba design/shape as a mon. That isn't the case. Plus this all applied during a very brief period, which didn't apply in general anyways. No-one looked at a tsuba shape and said "That resembles the shape of a mon!"
This isn't the sort of tsuba that would have been worn by someone important anyways.Think flashy and expensive. You wanted to impress people, not just wear a badge.
I understand your romantic thoughts and why. But they simply don't apply here.

https://www.seidosho...ducts/eng-kamon-kiku
"Many samurai and warlords have used chrysanthemum emblems throughout history, but from 1871 to the end of WW2, Kiku mon were finally restricted by law for the exclusive use of the emperor and imperial family members."

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Simon!

 

So, to quote what you asked me-

 

“So Dan, what you seem to be driving at is that the tsuba in your possession could only have been owned by someone within - or closely associated with - the Japanese imperial family because of the 16 petal design.

Is that correct?”

 

No, my friend, that is not correct!  At first, I thought that my 16 petal kiku tsuba could have been used by someone closely associated with the imperial family because the 16 petal kiku mon could only be used by the imperial family.  But I was wrong (again!), although it continued my line of inquiry and investigation into the 16 petal kiku tsuba.

 

I also discovered that the 14 petal kiku mon (tsuba?) was used by the imperial princes.

 

Could some (or a few) extant 16 petal and 14 petal kiku tsuba have been used by the imperial family or someone closely associated with them? 

 

I think “yes”.  I think that is a definite possibility and not completely unrealistic.

 

However, how can one tell if it was used by the imperial family (or someone associated with them) or who used it?  There is probably no way to confirm any such thing!

 

The 16 (and 14) petal kiku tsuba are just another interesting area in the adventure of tsuba collecting!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Kurikata]

and what about a 12 petal Kiku tsuba  ? 

[Ford Hallam]

I think a pertinent question might be, under what circumstances, if any, would the Shogunate allow any members of the Imperial household to go running around wearing weapons that were any more then merely highly ceremonial and significantly less than battle ready.

 

The warrior class could never attain the lofty heights of courtly refinement and the court certainly wouldn't lower them selves to boorish warrior affectations. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Bruno!  Nice 12 petal kiku tsuba!

 

So here is some stuff I found on the 12 petal kiku mon.

 

Three 12-petal Chrysanthemums

Kanji      三つ盛り十二菊

Transliteration    Mitsu Mori Jūni-giku

Translation          Three Heaped 12-chrysanthemums

Date       1470

Categories           Plant: Chrysanthemum (Other), Arrangement: One-and-Two

Sources Kenmon Shokamon (見聞諸家紋; “Various Observed Family Crests”). 1467–1470. http://dl.ndl.go.jp/...o:ndljp/pid/2533035. pg. 13.

From this website-

https://mon.xavid.us...tal%20Chrysanthemums

 

The best I can figure is the 12 petal kiku kamon may have belonged to the Amakusa clan.

 

I found a picture of something very close to the 12 petal kiku kamon and its clan on the below website-

https://www.patternz...y-crest-list-symbol/

 

Some information about the clan here-

https://samurai-arch...makusa_clan_(Echigo)

 

and here (although it is spelled Amaksua)-

https://en.wikipedia...g/wiki/Amakasu_clan#:

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

As I stated in one of my previous posts, I am retired and enjoy digging around on the internet for tsuba information!

 

Anyway, found something that may be of interest at the below link-

 

https://varshavskyco...ction/tsu-0395-2019/

 

It is showing an early, around 1150 to 1200’s, tachi 14 petal kiku tsuba (that the individual petals may have at one time been complete?) which could indicate that this may have belonged to a prince of the imperial family.  As the number of petals (14 in this case) could relate to the imperial family (as explained in a previous post) or it could just be a coincidence!

 

Anyway, an interesting really old kiku type tachi tsuba for your enjoyment!

 

Site is copyrighted, so I only provided the link.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Ford Hallam]

I think that we might have a very long and vigorous debate regarding the possible age of this alleged Tachi tsuba, Dan.

 

I'd suggest that Mr Markhasin raises more questions and problems to his attribution than his attempt to justify it actually achieves. It's simply not reliable enough to base any sort of theory or speculation on. 

But the problem is, as always, if you are only reliant on internet material and have no access to more solid and scholarly reference books to examine these sorts of claims you have no way of evaluating their validity.

 

I don't imagine there are many copies of the Tokyo Museum catalogue of early koshirae on the shelves of our membership for example.

[Dan tsuba]

So, reviewing some of the posts on this thread I noticed that on 1/1 at 2:42 AM it was stated -

 

“You're treating a tsuba design/shape as a mon. That isn't the case. Plus this all applied during a very brief period, which didn't apply in general anyways. No-one looked at a tsuba shape and said "That resembles the shape of a mon!"

 

So, I did some research and found that there is a tsuba shape called the Kikka Gata (chrysanthemum shaped tsuba shape).  Which was found on an old thread on this forum-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/15116-tsuba-outlines/

 

Also, on a previous post to this thread I mentioned a kamon book I have with nearly 7000 kamon designs shown!

 

I have included pictures of some tsuba below.  Each tsuba is a family kamon according to my book (although which family it belonged to is not stated!).

 

Even the simple hexagonal and octagonal shape of the tsuba signifies a family kamon!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan