Okan Posted December 29, 2023 Report Posted December 29, 2023 I am sure he had done his research before selling this otherwise he would be asking a lot more and its clearly gimei.:treasure hunting needs some basic knowledge right? (I think this is the 6th time i’m repeating myself) 3
Swords Posted December 29, 2023 Author Report Posted December 29, 2023 I don’t have the sword I sent money via PP this morning and asked about papers or refund and has been Mia I think the morale of the story is get papers for any well known smith for high ticketed swords 1
Guest Simon R Posted December 29, 2023 Report Posted December 29, 2023 22 minutes ago, Swords said: I think the morale of the story is get papers for any well known smith for high ticketed swords Er, no. That is just what everyone has been telling you since you started this thread (along with all the good advice offered before on your other threads. The true moral of this story is "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". You repeatedly ask for advice on seemingly random swords and you usually get a very heartfelt and informative response. You then invariably completely disregard this advice and so now I - and I'm sure many others - just feel 'what on earth is the point'? Admittedly, you've bought a couple of books now like Slough - but you look up the swordsmith after you've already bought the blade. Therefore, the book may as well be just a paper brick.
Mark S. Posted December 29, 2023 Report Posted December 29, 2023 10 hours ago, Swords said: I don’t have alot of time for research You’ve taken a VERY EXPENSIVE and DIFFICULT area of study and made it WAY MORE EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT than it needs to be, but that is up to you. And hey… we all learn in different ways. As my now 90 year-old Mother used to say when we were kids just before we were making a decision she could see was pretty much 90% gonna blow up in our faces… “Suit Yourself”. Of course she was always there afterward to make sure our Father didn’t kill one, or all of us, 3 boys. Love you Mom… But I will ask you some of the same questions I asked about the other blade you had questions about: Why did you like the blade? How does it fit in your collection? Is the condition acceptable to you at this price? Do you know anything about Gassan Sadakazu? Have you compared this Sadakazu’s blades against similar Sadakazu blades at other sites to see if this is Shoshin and at a fair price? And finally, do you like the blade at this price no matter what we think? At the end of the day, that is really what matters. I already know the answer to a few of the questions, but it really does pain me to see you go through this. I still hope you will stay and learn. I just hope you will take the time to learn less expensively and learn less painfully. 5 1
Matsunoki Posted December 29, 2023 Report Posted December 29, 2023 This will inevitably end in tears…….again. Such a pity that all our attempts to offer advice and guidance was last met by expletives (rightly deleted by admin) and insults (on his Kanesada adventure). good luck with getting your money back, the description that the seller used is bullet proof ie he did not say it was by Sadakazu. I fear you are at his charitable mercy……and I would not regard him as a friend if I were you. 2 1
Brian Posted December 29, 2023 Report Posted December 29, 2023 Look, the main thing is do you like the sword without the signature? If you do...then by all means keep it. It does look like a nice sword, with a lovely hada. There is NO "pricelist" to say what a sword is worth. But you are going to have to learn what has been repeated over and over and over here. A sword without papers NEEDS to be treated as mumei, and you buy the sword, not the mei. You can not judge a signature on your own, with books or without. That's why shinsa exists. And there is no treasure hunting that will end well. If you like the sword, buy it. Don't buy the story ever, don't buy the signature. You want to know who made it, send it to shinsa. They will either say it is correct (unlikely, but possible) or they will say it's gimei. Sometimes, with NTHK shinsa (not NBTHK) they might give a clue as to who they think it is. You should be buying from the Sales section here, rather than random dealers. At least then the seller is known. Again...if you like the sword and the quality, then enjoy it. Don't expect it to be a $8K sword from a major smith though. 4 1
Swords Posted December 29, 2023 Author Report Posted December 29, 2023 I can see see why shinsa is so important I do appreciate everyone’s feed back So I will leave it at that! 1
Swords Posted December 29, 2023 Author Report Posted December 29, 2023 So the dealer was kind enough to refund me but pp kept me fee’s Now any thing pricey by a known smith has to have papers or passed shinsa I read the description over again and it did say signed and made by the smith ! not that in matters now I have been looking for quite some time before I got side tracked with that sword! A WW2 Japanese Navy Gendaito Or older Has to be I good condition No nicks or any other issues price 3000-4000 I have tried the auction but no luck I do appreciate everyone’s help to take time with my sword As they say shame on me twice my damm fault ! Any way have a happy New Year! Maybe gold coins?? I would probably buy a fake one Steve 3 3
Matsunoki Posted December 29, 2023 Report Posted December 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Swords said: or passed shinsa I read the description over again and it did say signed and made by the smith Steve, great news that you’ve got (most of) your money back, well done. Good decision. However it’s really important that you learn to spot what the description actually says rather than what you think it says. Some dealers are very clever in the way they phrase things. Look again at what it said….. ” He says the sword tang is signed……. He does not say the sword is MADE BY……. it is deliberate phraseology designed to allow an escape route for him. It is vital that you can spot the difference if you intend to venture into the unknown market. Peace! Best wishes Colin 4 1
Swords Posted December 29, 2023 Author Report Posted December 29, 2023 Good info Colin still best to Have it pass shinsa or paypers especially when you’re looking to spend alot of cash on a well known smith 1
Mark S. Posted December 30, 2023 Report Posted December 30, 2023 So just to head this off at the pass now that you are convinced ‘papers’ are the end all be all… There are all kinds of papers. Dealers on EBAY will claim that the registration is “papers”. Some dealers issue their own official looking papers for their own blades… convenient. There are NBTHK, NTHK, and NTHK-NPO papers. There are different level papers. There are very high rated smiths that have the same level papers as lower tier smiths for a variety of reasons. Papers do not set the price of any given blade, the market does. Papers can give you a sense of security hat a mei is legit or point you in a certain direction in the case of an unsigned blade. There is no way around it… research, knowledge and education are your friend. 3
Brian Posted December 30, 2023 Report Posted December 30, 2023 If you pay someone via Paypal, you lose the fees. If he had hit the "refund" button in Paypal, there would have been no fees at all. You need to take him up on this. Refund HIS payment, then ask him to refund the original payment instead of just making a payment to you. Note, no-one said big name swords HAVE to have papers. Just that without them, don't pay a large premium for the name. Sometimes the work clearly confirms the mei too...like Ayasugi hada or sudareba, which can lead to confirming a signature. But without papers, as we have said, but the WORK first and not the mei. 5
Swords Posted December 30, 2023 Author Report Posted December 30, 2023 I did not pay friend s & family or dose that matter?
Stephen Posted December 30, 2023 Report Posted December 30, 2023 Ask him to refund no charge to him by ebay.
Swords Posted December 31, 2023 Author Report Posted December 31, 2023 Will try thanks for the tip Know anyone that has a nice WW2 Navy sword Gendaito in excellent condition ? Seem impossible to find one I tried auction but no luck
Brian Posted December 31, 2023 Report Posted December 31, 2023 Navy swords were not usually Gendaito. The vast majority are stainless/arsenal blades. Rare to find one remounted. Not that they don't exist, but you will struggle to find one. 2
Swords Posted December 31, 2023 Author Report Posted December 31, 2023 Thanks Brian I did see a WW2 navy sword on EBay looks older not signed but it’s definitely not stainless the mounts are beautiful I see nicks here and there and the wrapping looks cut near the Tsuba I would post it but I don’t want to get more criticism by the babbling Critics On a good note have a happy new year Peace and good will Hopefully we will have a better year in our world ! There is too much hate ! We need a new president that will lead us in the right direction as long as it’s not trump! Than can kiss our country good by!!
The Blacksmith Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 Regarding papers, as has been said, they are not always what they seem............... Back in 1982, I bought an absolutely stunning wakizashi blade at the Bowden sale at Christies, London. I bought it because I liked it, it was absolutely massive with O kissaki, which I love, and it was in perfect condition in shirasaya. Perfect! The mei was Tsuta Echizen no Kami Sukehiro, and the date was Enpo gonen. Even to my uneducated eye it didn't look like SukeHiro's work. But I was spellbound by the beautiful blade, so no problem anyway. The blade did come with an orikami by Hakusui Inami, stating that it was by SukeHiro with its supposed value etc.. Inami evidently signed a whole batch of papers for Sir Frank Bowden, including in the same sale a supposed MasaMune! However, on the orikami, he cleverly didnt affix his seal, effectively meaning that they were not signed, and therefore invalid. All the above didn't matter to me as I fell in love with the blade itself, not the supposed smith. The papers were dated 1968 IIRC. 3
Guest Simon R Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 13 hours ago, Swords said: Thanks Brian I did see a WW2 navy sword on EBay looks older not signed but it’s definitely not stainless the mounts are beautiful I see nicks here and there and the wrapping looks cut near the Tsuba I would post it but I don’t want to get more criticism by the babbling Critics On a good note have a happy new year Peace and good will Hopefully we will have a better year in our world ! There is too much hate ! We need a new president that will lead us in the right direction as long as it’s not trump! Than can kiss our country good by!! The "babbling critics" (of which I am one) are trying to save you money, mate. At the moment, you seem determined to throw it around with absolutely no knowledge of what you are buying. Anyhow, Happy New Year.
Matsunoki Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 Are we being intentionally trolled here? Is it all a game? 1 2
Bruce Pennington Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 15 hours ago, Swords said: happy new year Peace and good will Hopefully we will have a better year in our world ! Sincerely wish the same to you Steven. Really. But you are way out of line with: 15 hours ago, Swords said: We need a new president that will lead us in the right direction as long as it’s not trump! Than can kiss our country good by!! If you want to join me in the Boxing Ring Thread I would be happy to do a fact-check on that claim with you. But not here. 15 hours ago, Swords said: There is too much hate ! Ditto with this statement. True but coming from just the opposite people you are implying. But again - Boxing Ring material. Happy New you fellow Sword Collector. 1
Stephen Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 41 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: would be happy to do a fact-check on that claim with you. That would be the saddest fncking post and if we get one I'm out of here!!!
Bruce Pennington Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 6 minutes ago, Stephen said: That would be the saddest fncking post and if we get one I'm out of here!!! It's just a shame that we can't just have a Gassan discussion, or Happy New Year greeting, or talks about ducks - without someone's Trump Derangement Syndrome leaking out all over our enjoyable discussions. It IS pretty sad. 1
GeorgeLuucas Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 @Swords it might be helpful to explain to us your collecting goals. Right now it just seems like you’re throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks Do you simply want an authentic Japanese sword as a conversation piece for your larger militaria collection? Is your goal to appreciate the art in Nihonto, and learn everything you can? Or are you treasure hunting trying to buy and resell? Other motivation/goal perhaps? All the best, Happy new year, -Sam 2
Swords Posted January 1 Author Report Posted January 1 I thought this was a place to have discussions? It started on a positive note than went back to the old sarcasm thrown in my face again I know I need to read more books I don’t need to be told a hundred times ! About the babbling I wasn’t pointing fingers at any one specific person so I apologize for that I did save money so I appreciate that I probably shouldn’t have brought up Trump but was merely pointing out that the world is messed up and we need a president who can lead us in the right direction in this New Year ! Your right Trump is deranged but that’s not what you meant I had mentioned earlier about looking for a WW2 Navy sword but got side tracked with My last sword! I can’t find Any other Navy on the auction site Or any other swords Only discussions Which I think shouldn’t be in the auction site just my opinion Steve
Swords Posted January 1 Author Report Posted January 1 Just curious how many people on this forum think they need to read more books???
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