(not) gold menuki

[YOJIMBO]

I'm interested in your opinion. I don't think it's massive gold. Next I think, it is a new casting. What do you think ?

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1117367854

[vajo]

gilded copper yes. Looks new yes.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

how can you tell @vajo

[Matsunoki]

Without testing it’s impossible to be sure but such things were made in Meiji (maybe earlier as well?) and they look excellent quality. My feeling says gold. Possibly intended for a solid gold mounted Tanto? I have seen a few such lavish Tanto. 

[vajo]

58 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

how can you tell @vajo

I'm old but not stupid 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

im old and stupid!  

 

surprised it went for 450k yen

[vajo]

I cant belive it that it was paid. He wrote 24k Gold. So the gilding is 24k?  

I would never buy gold menuki if they are not tokubetsu hozon. But anyway you get 1oz gold for $2000. So why to buy expensive casted pure gold menuki with 20gr gold ($1300) 

So maybe they are gold or not gold? Who can say this without proving? There so many gold menuki out there. And the gold price is near the all time high. Are they an investment? Everyone should judge but i never would buy it at these prices. 

If someone wants to buy gold buy gold ounces. 

 

The dragon rectangle series from Australia is very nice. And every year since 2018 they came out with a new motif.

1oz pure gold.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ford Hallam]

I don't see any reason to suspect they're plated.

 

I very much doubt they're 24ct/pure gold. More like 20ct, gold with a little silver and a tiny bit of copper. To clarify, 18ct is 75% pure gold plus other non gold metals to alloy. With yellow gold that'd typically be silver and copper in equal parts, ie; 12.5% each. 

 

I don't think these are castings either, more like late Meiji (at the earliest) but properly raised and chased menuki. I wouldn't regard them as particularly fine examples of menuki sculpture though.

 

Sources:

My opinion as a goldsmith of over 40 years experience and a Japanese metalwork practitioner and specialist for 30 years. 

[vajo]

So with Fords guess the gold worth is $930 for the both menuki. 

 

 

[Tanto54]

Doesn't this have some small "positive" bubbles of gold (on the front and back) that indicate recent, modern, investing casting methods, and isn't that porosity on the back which is another indicator of casting rather than uchidashi?

 

[Matsunoki]

Isn’t it strange the way we react to any artwork made from gold? We immediately gauge its value by its weight/bullion value. It’s a good job we don’t judge swords, tsuba, Kabuto etc using the same criteria🙂

[vajo]

@Collin the buyer payed 3200 Dollar (450.000 Yen) for this menuki. What was the reason to pay so much money if not because of the thinking its gold. 

If Ford is correct with 75% gold ($930) the buyer paid 2270 Dollar more for the artwork? Make this sense?

 

Btw: AOI sold the same for 120.000 Yen (835 Dollar). 

[YOJIMBO]

9 hours ago, Ford Hallam said:

I don't see any reason to suspect they're plated.

 

I very much doubt they're 24ct/pure gold. More like 20ct, gold with a little silver and a tiny bit of copper. To clarify, 18ct is 75% pure gold plus other non gold metals to alloy. With yellow gold that'd typically be silver and copper in equal parts, ie; 12.5% each. 

 

I don't think these are castings either, more like late Meiji (at the earliest) but properly raised and chased menuki. I wouldn't regard them as particularly fine examples of menuki sculpture though.

 

Sources:

My opinion as a goldsmith of over 40 years experience and a Japanese metalwork practitioner and specialist for 30 years. 

and what does your practice say about this? is the gold peeling off? new for me

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, vajo said:

f Ford is correct with 75% gold ($930) the buyer paid 2270 Dollar more for the artwork? Make this sense?

@vajo

hi Chris

Many artworks made from gold often sell for far more than their bullion value…..rings, snuff boxes, watches etc

Gold menuki are far far rarer than normal ones so I guess he valued them on that basis ie a rare artwork that he wanted to own.

If we applied the bullion value to iron tsuba etc they would be worth nothing but we pay much money for them 😊😊

I do agree if you only want to own gold buy bullion. 
Depends on why we buy things

All the best

Colin

[YOJIMBO]

7 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

@vajo

ahoj Chrisi

Mnoho uměleckých děl vyrobených ze zlata se často prodává za mnohem více, než je jejich cena zlata…..prsteny, tabatěrky, hodinky atd.

Zlaté menuki jsou mnohem vzácnější než ty normální, takže si myslím, že si jich vážil na tomto základě, tj. vzácného uměleckého díla, které chtěl vlastnit.

Pokud bychom použili hodnotu drahých kovů na železné tsuby atd., nestály by za nic, ale platíme za ně hodně peněz 😊 😊

Souhlasím, pokud chcete vlastnit pouze zlato, kupujte pruty. 
Záleží na tom, proč si věci kupujeme

Vše nejlepší

Colin

please stay on topic

[YOJIMBO]

I am convinced that they are not gold, not even the ones from aoi art. they are the same, they have the same weight, just copies.

[YOJIMBO]

1 hour ago, vajo said:

@Collin the buyer payed 3200 Dollar (450.000 Yen) for this menuki. What was the reason to pay so much money if not because of the thinking its gold. 

If Ford is correct with 75% gold ($930) the buyer paid 2270 Dollar more for the artwork? Make this sense?

 

Btw: AOI sold the same for 120.000 Yen (835 Dollar). 

https://www.aoijapan...ings/2015/F15719.jpg

[Ford Hallam]

Seeing the close ups of the gold surface this morning I'd have to adjust my initial opinion. 

 

The peeling on the one set of ashi strongly suggests plating. On balance electro-plating rather than mercury fire gilding/kin-keshi. Although what looks like fine porosity on the other menuki back looks a bit like un-burnished kin-keshi. The positive bubble again looks like a casting artefact.

 

1 hour ago, YOJIMBO said:

and what does your practice say about this? is the gold peeling off? new for me

 There seems to be some wear of the gilding on the edges here, and it looks a bit like copper underneath. If it is copper it wouldn't have been cast, so perhaps brass? The flaking off gold is quite extreme but as the ashi are often attached by means of lead solder the gold adhesion would be weak in those areas. if it is lead solder there then it would be evidence in favour of the gold being electroplated, albeit very thickly. 

 

An in-hand examination would be so much more informative . Pure gold weighs twice what copper does so the feel is usually quite noticeable.