Have Tokubetsu Hozen standards dropped?

[Alex A]

A few folks mentioned they have noticed TH standards recently

 

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject ?

[Gakusee]

11 minutes ago, Alex A said:

A few folks mentioned they have noticed TH standards recently

 

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject ?

Alex, that is strange. I have the opposite impression - standards are tightening, especially at Juyo and Tokuju levels. Even for ToHo, sometimes items need to be submitted twice. It is logical that if Juyo standards are tightening, so should the level below, ToHo. 
 

I personally think that it is a misperception about how the criteria are being applied by the shinsa panel and how we, outside of the NBTHK, interpret the criteria that causes the biggest issue. As collectors we tend to have a bias towards the blades we own, since we own them because we like them. Sometimes that subjectivity clouds our objectivity. 

[kissakai]

 

Maybe off topic but for tsuba I'd like there to be a bit more detail if known

My Hizen gives the mei translation but no generation and I've shown it to a couple of respected sword collectors and they say the generation is quite obvious

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Hi Michael,

 

The issue for me is the number blades i see with TH that are plain average blades by average smiths.

 

You only need to look around the Japanese dealer sites.

 

As mentioned in the other thread, Shinshinto waks by average smiths,  don't see why Hozen was not enough for such a sword.

 

Looked at Aoi a while ago and nearly all the waks were TH.

 

Several or more years ago you would see them as the minority.

[Alex A]

History, Evolution and Meaning of NBTHK Japanese sword papers (nihontocraft.com)

 

AUTHENTIC & BEAUTIFUL Japanese SWORDS AND FITTINGS (touken-matsumoto.jp)

 

 

 

[Paz]

It's a difficult one to pin down. 

 

The criteria I think was to be followed for Tokubetsu Hozon 

 

Kamakura sword- polished, good condition 

Mumei or zaimei , soshinmei , would be given Tokubetsu hozon due to their age. 

 

The same for Nanbokucho period swords with the same criteria. 

 

Saying that. There are swords from this period with standard hozon.

 

Muromachi swords would be looked at more carefully, where smith, school  and condition would need to be higher level to get TH. 

 

Edo period. Abundance of swords with mei, and  ubu . But these swords are getting Tokubetsu hozon, I've seen one example with my own eyes where the smith was Not anyone notable, nor could his sword be found as wazamono on the list. But it was sold as wazamono. The blade itself was great, but nothing special. Lacked any visual appeal on jigane or hada. 

 

It's difficult to pin down. May even depend on which individuals are on the board that day. 

 

Another factor to mention is value. Am I right in saying that a TH papered sword should fetch anything above 4k ?? 

 

Regards

[Alex A]

You could pull many examples up but i wont, as folks are trying to sell them.

 

Just don't feel like anything special any more.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Just don't feel like anything special any more.

Alex

20-25 years ago when I started looking into swords and started going to Token GB meetings, seeing Juyo was like seeing a Yeti. Ultra rare and perhaps once every few years when one popped at an auction. 
Now it is very different….

[Rivkin]

I don't think it matters much. TH does not bring much value except to pre-Muromachi mumei pieces where it is often used to confirm the item is indeed pre-Muromachi rather than Oei.

Otherwise its a tool to get some extra cash for the papering agency. It is not more specific than Hozon, it involves little to no extra discussions.

I will express my usual bigotry, but too many collectors say "my sword is TH" or even "Juyo" with gravitas as if its something very special. 

Its not.

[Paz]

15 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

I don't think it matters much. TH does not bring much value except to pre-Muromachi mumei pieces where it is often used to confirm the item is indeed pre-Muromachi rather than Oei.

Otherwise its a tool to get some extra cash for the papering agency. It is not more specific than Hozon, it involves little to no extra discussions.

I will express my usual bigotry, but too many collectors say "my sword is TH" or even "Juyo" with gravitas as if its something very special. 

Its not.

 

 

But if a sword is juyo. Ie important work. Then it has to be something? 

 

I mean anything above juyo can't even leave Japan. Unless it's papered outside of Japan and belongs in a museum, or somebody has won the lottery and spent something silly. 

 

@Gakusee that's very interesting to know. Could it be more people are submitting to shinsa and finding they had something special in the attic ? 

 

 

Regards 

 

 

[Mark]

16 minutes ago, Paz said:

mean anything above juyo can't even leave Japan. Unless it's papered outside of Japan and belongs in a museum, or somebody has won the lottery and spent something silly. 

i do not believe this is correct and i don't want incorrect information being spread. As far as i know TokuJu blades (higher than Juyo) can be sent outside Japan, i think blades above that can be sent outside Japan. If a blade is modern Kokuho it can not leave but i think pre-war important blades are re rated lower and can be sent out of Japan.........  if i am wrong please correct this.

[Rivkin]

Any NBTHK designation is a private organization's business and bears little influence on export permits.

Juyo Bunkazai and Kokuho can be exported for exposition purposes, the permit takes about half to two years and you typically need a strong public venue for the exhibit.

Juyo Bijutsuhin can theoretically be exported with no restrictions since its obsolete, but in reality its quite a bit unpredictable.

Some items like Chokuto can be easily denied export permit even without Juyo Bunkazai status.

 

Juyo is a kind of thing that once its given to X blade, similar ones have good chance to get it as well. So mumei Ichimonji in decent condition has good chances to get a Juyo. Are they particularly rare? Not too much. Are they scientifically important? Not too much. There are tons Hizen Tadayoshi's that are Juyo. Are they important? Well...

On the other hand you might have dated Mogusa with just Hozon or signed Shizu Kaneuji. Absolutely incomparable rarity and value. Irregardless of paper level. 

 

[Ray Singer]

As said above, those which have achieved Tokubetsu Juyo can certainly be exported. Juyo Bijitsuhin, Juyo Bunkazai and Kokuho are not exactly 'above' NBTHK classifications. They are a different system, and there are not necessarily quality overlaps (it is not a given that a sword with Juyo Bijitsuhin classification wouid even achieve Juyo if submitted within the NBTHK system). I believe the process for exporting Juyo Bijitsuhin requires the blade to have been declassified (stricken from the list) and then it can be exported as a sword with no classification. We were lucky to have been able to see number of Kokuho and Juyo Bunkazai here in the US a few years ago when they were exported for an exhibition at the Met and then returned to Japan. 

[Alex A]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Alex

20-25 years ago when I started looking into swords and started going to Token GB meetings, seeing Juyo was like seeing a Yeti. Ultra rare and perhaps once every few years when one popped at an auction. 
Now it is very different….

 

 

Yeti

 

Aye, as time has gone on its understandable there would be a lot more.

 

Just seems recently a lot more, like dealers over in Japan are turning up the heat with shifting average blades with next level papers.. 

 

 

[Alex A]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

I don't think it matters much. TH does not bring much value except to pre-Muromachi mumei pieces where it is often used to confirm the item is indeed pre-Muromachi rather than Oei.

Otherwise its a tool to get some extra cash for the papering agency. It is not more specific than Hozon, it involves little to no extra discussions.

I will express my usual bigotry, but too many collectors say "my sword is TH" or even "Juyo" with gravitas as if its something very special. 

Its not.

 

I remember looking over sites (as mentioned) years ago and looking at TH blades. Back then i could work out why they were TH, they seemed to stand out for one reason or another. 

 

Even the TH blades ( to be honest) that were not by top notch smiths and of average quality seemed to have something about them, such as being rare or stood out for one reason or another.

 

Nowadays I'm left wondering by a lot out there.

 

Maybe i need to take off the rose tinted spectacles, i don't know.

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

This is extremely interesting subject, and I am having difficulties in gathering my thoughts in somewhat readable form that is not flowing randomly. As some may know I do have bit OCD style data gathering tendencies for pre-mid Muromachi swords. And of course NBTHK papered swords play a huge deal in that, especially their attributions. As I am classifying the items by attributions.

 

Now as a collector I am starting to have the opposite view :D I don't really care what the (mumei) sword has been attributed to if I like it. At the level collecting possible to me it does not really make a difference what the attribution is as the very high quality stuff will be beyond my reach. And I must admit I am not the greatest fan of Japanese style super specific attributions, although I understand there are many layers into the attributions.

 

I think it used to be possible to send a sword for Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon at the same time (I have never sent a sword to NBTHK or any organization). However I did not even know that this has changed, here is the current information

 

Quote

SUBMISSIONS FOR SHINSA

 

Items which qualify for the October Juyo Token Shinsa should have received a Tokubetsu Hozon classification by June. Toso (koshirae) and toshingu (tosogu) should have received a Tokubetsu Hozon classification by May. Please note these requirements.  

 

From March, 2022, requirements were changed. Items submitted for Tokubetsu Hozon Shinsa must have passed a Hozon Shinsa a month or more before the the Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa application. If the item has already passed an earlier shinsa, please submit a reservation number and certificate for the items.

 

As my specific data is for very old swords (that are generally highly appreciated), the data for Hozon vs. Tokubetsu Hozon is totally skewed. As I just checked I have at the moment record for 819 Hozon swords and 1772 Tokubetsu Hozon swords. That shows that for pre-mid Muromachi getting Tokubetsu Hozon is very common for swords compared to item being "just" Hozon.

 

I remember some years ago I tried to figure out the NBTHK submission numbers etc. and discussed it with Darcy. There were of course some incompleteness in my logic & numbers as I don't have access to all of the data. However now we know that current limitation is 1,600 swords per Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa session.

Using my logic and calculations there would be currently 120,000+ swords passed Hozon and 75,000+ swords passed Tokubetsu Hozon, these lower levels are bit speculative. Now these high levels are 100% factual as I counted the items myself There are currently (Jūyō 69) 12,217 Jūyō swords (the actual number is tad higher as I didn't count daishō as 2 swords and did not count swords attached to koshirae). At Tokubetsu Jūyō level there are currently (Tokubetsu Jūyō 27) 1,200 swords.

 

I like what Kirill is saying above that we shouldn't focus on the "level" of the sword as much as the rarity of the item. Of course that agrees with my historical view, so it is easy for me to side with it. Even though Jūyō swords are of very high quality there are 12,000+ of them and plenty of mumei X attributions, or signed items by popular smiths. Where as you could have historically important items with just Hozon papers for example having one of very few signed items by smith X.

[Alex A]

Jussi, your data colleting abilities never cease to amaze me, thanks.

[Franco D]

Keep in mind that although a sword may meet all the basic requirements to pass Tokubetsu Hozon, the question of a sword's quality still remains the object of subjective evaluation. And once a sword attempts to reach the next level of Juyo or above, the sword's polish also comes into question. 

 

Regards,

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have been reading books this evening and by chance I encountered this Nagamitsu tachi in few books that will fit what Ray was saying above about various rankings by different organizations overlapping.

 

 

Sword was originally Jūyō Bijutsuhin, then apparently it was in the US and found it's way back to Japan and passed Jūyō 22 shinsa. It is amazing ubu tachi of 80,5 cm by one of the top smiths... but apparently bōshi is almost completely lost.

 

Another example would be overlap between NBTHK & NTHK, so far I only have 1 NTHK Yushu book but I intend to get rest of them some day in the future too... From that 1 Yushu book I have been able to match following NBTHK ranks for old swords 3 Tokubetsu Jūyō, 5 Jūyō and 2 Tokubetsu Hozon.

 

I think perhaps also one reason for the change of view in papering is the ease of seeing things due to the internet. As many Japanese dealers and sites (yahoo auctions, museums etc.) are accessible now, I feel that I keep seeing so many Tokubetsu Hozon items every week as I browse the sites weekly I don't even note them too much, unless I see them as special towards my own intrests. As crazy as it seems I have noticed personally I even start to be bit oversaturated on Jūyō swords, and some of them don't evoke too much feelings. There are so many average sized high quality mumei swords by X makers. Yes very high quality items but for me they are just that... I have noticed I get hyped about lesser quality historical items more and getting info on swords from shrines & temples for example is super exciting for me. I think most of them don't even have any "official" designations, while some top items will be Kokuhō, Bunkazai, Bijutsuhin etc.

[Jon]

9 hours ago, Paz said:

I mean anything above juyo can't even leave Japan. Unless it's papered outside of Japan and belongs in a museum, or somebody has won the lottery and spent something silly. 

Hi that’s not true, there are at last count I believe 122 blades that are considered “national treasures” ( Kokuho) cannot leave Japan unless via a specific loan agreement with a museum, there are also around   A further 800 blades classed as  Juyo-Bunkazai ( important cultural property ) that cannot be exported…but graded as TOKUBETSU JUYO TOKEN does not mean is a “national treasure” or important cultural property ( although it may be) as there are over a 1100 TOKUBETSU JUYO TOKEN blades and over 10,000 JUYO TOKEN blades.

[Alex A]

It would be interesting to get a point of view from one of the Japanese dealers on the subject, again 

 

Seeing it from the point of view of NBTHK or whoever.

 

It must be a real headache a lot of the time, with the numbers submitted and blades where they split hairs over moving up to the next level, what we might describe as "average", putting it simply. On top of that no doubt they feel pressure from dealers but lets not forget its a paid job.

 

I've always linked TH with the words "Especially Worthy of Preservation". 

 

Repeating myself as usual, but that used to be clear, now feels like a muddled mess.

 

Well, we all know Hozen will do just fine anyways, i guess.

 

For folks that may be thinking focus on the blade and too much emphasis on the papers. Educated Folks are able to buy a sword with the knowledge they have but try selling an expensive sword with only that opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

I think if your blade can get Hozon, worthy of preservation, then almost automatically it should then be a candidate for 'especially' worthy...

 

I read somewhere that elevation to Tokuhon has changed emphasis in recent years from simply grading the 'quality' of a blade, to other factors such as marking a phase change in a smith's portfolio, or being of particular historical importance, etc. 

[Alex A]

Hi Piers

 

I always thought rare or as you point out "historical importance" was part of the TH deal that differentiated them from Hozen, maybe its something i just convinced myself over those years lol

 

Did own what could be described an average made blade, late Muromachi. That had TH because it was rare, hence my thinking.

 

Now we are seeing TH blades going relatively cheap, where they used to be the higher end.

 

 

[Rivkin]

I did not live in 1940s, but from collecting swords papered back then I think (and I could be really mistaken) the purpose of TH was actually a bit different.

Allies never had strong intentions to confiscate art swords, so as early as 1946 local police departments started to issue permits made on a typewriter with magic words "art sword" "worthy of preservation". There was no unified policy however on how to deal with the situation and in some places police did confiscate a lot of blades and placed them in storage.

Then came NBTHK which formed from the beginning many branches so they could issue "papers" that one could then provide to the police showing its an "art sword" or potentially have local NBTHK to go through the pile of things already brought over by the police and return the "art" ones. 

There was a short period when NBTHK judgements were made by local offices without any fixed format, on a typewriter and with no intention to certify the attribution, just say its a historic pre-WW2 item. I've seen those, signed personally by the local branch manager's seal.

When official registration came into being this was no longer needed and the organization switched to issuing judgement papers. There was still the attitude that the first line papers are not the "real" judgement so there was now a second level paper (Mr. Green) which indicated that its not just a historic sword, but a collectible item.

 

Yet the problem persisted that white and green papers could and were issued by local offices, so if you did not like the attribution you just kept submitting until you get the one you do like. After that even the main branch would seldom reject the local attribution. As the sword market went berserk in 1970s there was now a ton of green papers floating around with optimistic attributions/judgement.

For a while a "fix" was the "blue papers" which meant that the main branch have looked at your green papers and decided to double down on both the attribution and on the fact it is indeed a collectible.

Then the management changed, suddenly yakuza thingies in western Japan were being semi-openly whispered about and the system was overhauled with white becoming Hozon, green and blue remade into TH.

Except now unlike the previous times Hozon by itself became the final, best and as accurate as possible judgement by NBTHK. No longer a first step at the local office just to certify its something and then you can confirm it with higher papers.

 

This deprived TH of much of its meaning. Any signed upper grade Edo work can get it. Basically any pre-Muromachi blade, horror stories excluded, can get it.

[Alex A]

Good knowledge Kirill and interesting to read, thanks.

[O koumori]

IMHO, If you are looking at for trends (eg. "easier" or "harder" to pass TB), you have to look at the dates of the Shinsa, not when blades are up for sale.

Dan K

[Gakusee]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:29 PM, Ray Singer said:

As said above, those which have achieved Tokubetsu Juyo can certainly be exported. Juyo Bijitsuhin, Juyo Bunkazai and Kokuho are not exactly 'above' NBTHK classifications. They are a different system, and there are not necessarily quality overlaps (it is not a given that a sword with Juyo Bijitsuhin classification wouid even achieve Juyo if submitted within the NBTHK system). I believe the process for exporting Juyo Bijitsuhin requires the blade to have been declassified (stricken from the list) and then it can be exported as a sword with no classification. We were lucky to have been able to see number of Kokuho and Juyo Bunkazai here in the US a few years ago when they were exported for an exhibition at the Met and then returned to Japan. 

I agree with Ray. 
in fact,  the Juyo evaluation criteria mention that a blade needs to be of JuBi quality to deserve Juyo. In the case of TokuJu it needs to be of JuBu quality. 
in the cases of JuBi, JuBi, Kokuho on top of great preservation and quality you also have the historic provenance and importance factor. That is to be borne in mind. Sometimes people get confused and think a JuBi is superior to a Juyo blade. Well, probably in 50-60% of the cases it might be. But there are plenty of JuBi where  their quality is inferior to a top grade Juyo or where the JuBi mei today will probably not be confirmed as authentic by any of the authorities (Bunkacho or NBTHK). 
 

To point to the heart of the matter: if you have enough money (to buy JuBi) and appropriate contacts, your acquired JuBi can indeed be removed from the JuBi register, thus losing any status. Then it can be exported. However, one needs to be prepared to “lose monetary value” if one wants to sell it again or sell it back into Japan. That is because people pay a premium for JuBi status (not JuBi quality, as discussed above). 

[Alex A]

Has this actually happened?, sounds like a proper conundrum

[Mark S.]

I know it has been discussed many times, but I think it bears repeating, Darcy used to remind us that Hozon and THozon are ‘confirmation’ while Juyo and above are ‘competition’. I apologize if I did not use his exact words.

 

Hozon & THozon are a judgment of specific smiths and schools. They confirm originality, condition, and quality… but relatively narrowly . So (FOR EXAMPLE) you can have Hozon Sukesada blades, and then (the theory is) the best examples of that Sukesada’s blades can go THozon.  You could also have Hozon Ichimonji blades with the best going THozon.  Where the confusion seems to fall is believing the two THozon blades (or ALL THozon) are the same… they are not.  No one would equate a THozon Sukesada with a THozon Ichimonji.  Hozon and THozon level papers do not really place blades/smiths within the ‘grand scheme’ of Nihonto.  They are very specific to that smith/school.  
 

And I am sure most of us understand that just because a blade is Hozon and not THozon (or even above) does not mean it ISN’T a higher level blade.  The owner(s) may just not have submitted it for higher papers.  The blade is still the blade.
 

NOW… Juyo and above DO start to consider where a blade/smith/school fall within the ‘grand scheme, world, and history’ of Nihonto and is now a competition between ALL other blades/smiths/schools both at the time of submission (what is sitting in front of the judges at that moment in time) and also much more ‘globally’ of what the NBTHK considers ‘best’ in the history of Nihonto.  
 

DISCLAIMER: This is MY understanding of what I believe Darcy was trying to convey.  ANY mistakes and misunderstandings are my own.  I am very willing to hear if I am misrepresenting something he wrote.  I respect his teaching too much to steer someone else wrong.

[Gakusee]

32 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Has this actually happened?, sounds like a proper conundrum

 

Yes, it has. 
And in one case, the subsequent new owner (back in Japan) of the JuBi was not too happy that the JuBi paper had been invalidated. 
 

There are also various JuBi that pop up in the US and elsewhere which had been illegally removed by mainly American WWII soldiers. As these were not exported legally, theoretically their JuBi paper is not invalidated through the legal channels. So if you found such a JuBi, it would still have a JuBi status (which in itself is an expired but respected and desired designation).