Tokyo Sword Daisho

[HiramAbiff]

Hi everyone!  New member from Chicago.  I'm looking forward to attending the Chicago Sword Show and hopefully learning a lot more there than I can from online pictures and guides.  I was planning on buying my first katana after attending the sword show, but I came across a Daisho that I'm tempted to order immediately. 

 

After spending a few weeks looking at Ebay listings and trying to determine real vs fake swords, I am hoping someone can tell me if these swords are authentic, if they are worth collecting, if they could be restored (I know polishing is costly) and if they would fail NBTHK and NTHK based on the blade condition.

 

https://tokyosword.m...7-68in-440mm-17-32in

 

I'm assuming if they are still listed at that price, something is seriously wrong.  Thank you in advance for any help!  I hope I followed all of the rules 

[Ray Singer]

From what I can see these are already in sufficiently clear polish to appreciate. I would not purchase with the intent to put through restoration. They are already restored (and yes they are authentic). If you are looking for a set in related koshirae to display as a daisho, it would be difficult to find at a lower price than that.

Some good info below.
https://web.archive....isho-and-daishoisnt/
 

[Matsunoki]

This daisho has been on eBay for a while  …..

”tokyoexpressdeli”

…..Jason, be careful. Sometimes if it looks too good to be true…….

[Sansei]

Ray Singer is right about "restoration" wrt this purchase intent. A restoration would not be appropriate. Here are before and after photos of a current restoration that I am having done and it will include a papering process which is separate from the restoration. In the end, the whole thing will cost thousands $$$$. Much more than the price shown of your Daisho; just to give you an idea. I have also had a different katana papered in its original condition without polishing.

[HiramAbiff]

This is an odd forum; the replies have been extremely helpful and informative!  Where are the experts spewing vitriol at those of us just starting?

 

I do understand that they likely look similar and were not originally a Daisho, but the price point is what I was looking to spend on one sword.  They are definitely for display; I'm not going to be swinging them or anything.  Thank you for letting me know that their current condition is pretty much the best I can hope for.  I've been viewing the work of the two polishers in the United States I would trust and I understand the prices.

 

I have wanted an authentic nihonto almost my entire life.  I want something I can start out with, ensure my passion remains months later, and then start investing in better pieces.  Kind of like buying a starter motorcycle and moving up (I have 3 now)  

 

Colin, I've seen them on ebay as well, for significantly more.  The seller has a mixed reputation on various discussion boards and reddit.  The issue seems to be additional damage, not undelivered swords.  I think I may take the chance on this.

 

Thank you again, everyone, for sharing your knowledge with someone who has done enough research to know I don't know enough!

 

 

 

[Cookie4Monstah]

Greetings Hiram Abiff,

 

It seems as though you have not been murdered by three ruffians after all. Did you know that the emperor’s long lost sword is somewhere in the Swiss Alps hidden along with the long lost ark. For those confused already these are references to Freemasonry and the latest Indiana Jones movie featuring Harrison Ford. Anyways, that is a very economical paring of Daisho. The price(s) of Daisho parings vary tremendously according to several variables. I really like the maroon lacquer on the katana though. The image bellow is of a fifty mills coin attached to my key-fob. You might find it intriguing.
 

Ahlan wa sahlan,

Khalid

[HiramAbiff]

Thank you for the warm welcome, my brother! Luckily, I was raised to a living perpendicular.  Great coin, with the sprig on the front, and, I believe, 3 languages on the reverse.  (More Freemason talk)

 

It's amazing that no matter what hobby I get into, there's always a brother nearby.  That includes archery, fencing, and pretty much any hobby about which nobody else cares!

 

I understand these swords aren't going to be worth more than I pay for them, but I'm glad to know that they at least seem to be authentic.  I'm more interested in owning pieces of history than I am in owning the best quality antiques possible.  Of course, that will probably change after I go to the sword show and see what's on display!

[ROKUJURO]

16 hours ago, HiramAbiff said:

......I understand these swords aren't going to be worth more than I pay for them....

Jason,

if that is your position, then it may work for you. The price is according to the market value of these swords, and the reason for this low price is visible in the images. The blades have been repaired (UMEGANE), and they are not forming a true DAISHO. The quality of the TOSOGU is very moderate, to say the least.

It is a good idea to inform yourself first in Chicago, and probably in the long range, you may want to spend your money on one single sword of a quality that you can appreciate even after years of study.  

[Sansei]

"I do understand that they likely look similar and were not originally a Daisho, but the price point is what I was looking to spend on one sword......"

 

Jason, I agree with Jean that you should focus on one fine sword in your price range. Lots of puffing by sellers and sometimes outright fraud. Mei can be easily faked and sometimes the faking is so sophisticated that experts can be fooled (at least for a while anyway). Probably best to buy from one of the sellers on this forum.....Brian does a good job screening and monitoring. Btw here is a link to check out from another thread for a higher quality Daisho (no longer available but gives you an idea).....https://bid.igavelau...auction_uid1=6617736

 

Good hunting! :-)

[Alex A]

If you want a cheap daisho for display then these are fine, you wont look at the blades and think wow though.

 

As you might if you put all that money into a wak by a good smith.

 

Horses for courses.

 

Ps, with the daisho. Inspect images and ask about any flaws (disclosed and possible undisclosed) that may be too bad to live with.

 

 

[DTM72]

@HiramAbiff as a brother, coming to you on the level, the daisho is not a bad deal. Displayed on a nice katana kake, it would certainly garner attention from collectors of all levels. As mentioned above, the blades of both are not of the highest quality. The katana being suriage (cut-down in length) may have been a long tachi at the beginning of it's life. That being said, it has the appearance that it may have been made in the early 1500's. BUT, this time period brings about some problems. This was the warring period, and many swords were somwhat mass-produced, with mediocre quality known as kazu-uchimono. This katana (dai) does not appear to be such, but again, not the greatest quality.

For prospective, if you were to encounter this unpapered katana, in this koshirae, at a show, I would expect an asking price of around $2250. Additionally, if the unpapered wakizashi (sho) were found at a different vendor at the same show, I would expect to see an asking price of about $1250-$1500. Purchased separately this would cost you, after haggling over the sales price, around $3000-$3500. Trust me, many of us had much worse "1st nihonto" in our past.

 

I'm not sure if I will make it to the Chicago show, but if i do, I would enjoy chatting.

 

All the best my brother!

 

(studying my work as a Junior Deacon for the next ensuing Masonic year)

 

Dan

[DTM72]

Website is showing that this set is sold. Did you get it?

[HiramAbiff]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:15 AM, DTM72 said:

Website is showing that this set is sold. Did you get it?

Thank you, brother!  Yes, I decided to take the risk and use it as a display.  The seller offered to submit each sword for NBTHK shinsa at around $250/sword, but I know they would not get papered.  

 

Honestly, I had looked at a lot of worse swords on Ebay for around the same price, with fewer/blurry pictures, and although I definitely like these swords for display, I'm looking forward to studying the flaws as well.  I plan to do a lot more reading once they arrive and slowly learn as much as I can about them.  Eventually I will move on to purchasing a recently-papered Hozon, but by then I will know a lot more about smiths, schools, hamon, hada, etc., and know exactly what to look for.

 

Thank you, everyone, for your input!

[DTM72]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:11 PM, HiramAbiff said:

Thank you, brother!  Yes, I decided to take the risk and use it as a display.  The seller offered to submit each sword for NBTHK shinsa at around $250/sword, but I know they would not get papered.  

 

Honestly, I had looked at a lot of worse swords on Ebay for around the same price, with fewer/blurry pictures, and although I definitely like these swords for display, I'm looking forward to studying the flaws as well.  I plan to do a lot more reading once they arrive and slowly learn as much as I can about them.  Eventually I will move on to purchasing a recently-papered Hozon, but by then I will know a lot more about smiths, schools, hamon, hada, etc., and know exactly what to look for.

 

Thank you, everyone, for your input!

Actually, since both are mumei (unsigned) they both have an excellent chance of getting papered. As long as neither has a fatal flaw or show signs of re-tempering, which I do not see. I think the chances of papering are excellent. Happy for you brother!

[Cookie4Monstah]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:11 PM, HiramAbiff said:

Thank you, brother!  Yes, I decided to take the risk and use it as a display.  The seller offered to submit each sword for NBTHK shinsa at around $250/sword, but I know they would not get papered.  

 

Honestly, I had looked at a lot of worse swords on Ebay for around the same price, with fewer/blurry pictures, and although I definitely like these swords for display, I'm looking forward to studying the flaws as well.  I plan to do a lot more reading once they arrive and slowly learn as much as I can about them.  Eventually I will move on to purchasing a recently-papered Hozon, but by then I will know a lot more about smiths, schools, hamon, hada, etc., and know exactly what to look for.

 

Thank you, everyone, for your input!

Please reconsider the forgoing of the Shinsa as at $250 a sword is a very reasonable expense. Mumei is better than one fake or even two fake signatures. At least this way you might find out what school the smith that forged it was part of.

[Rivkin]

Frankly at this level the only question shinsa is going to answer is what's its default bucket for lower grade shinto works - Bungo, Echizen Seki etc. etc.