WW2 Japan Railway Dagger genuine ?

[Baikal_95]

Hi All,

 

It's a dagger not a sword but I am wondering if I can get any help from this forum. I am based in Europe and these pieces are not so common in our region.

The reseller is telling me that's a Japan Railway Dagger from WW2.

Based on the minimum info I got it looks correct to me, but I am wondering if the dagger is really genuine. 

Do you know if Chinese/Indian copies of these daggers exist?

Any guidance or advise would be welcome.

 

here I am attaching a few pics (I will have to send them by several messages due to the size).

 

Thanks in advance for your help

[Baikal_95]

[Baikal_95]

[Baikal_95]

[Baikal_95]

Once again thanks in advance for your help here.

[John C]

Could be. Here is a picture of another one (disregard the "yours" label).

 

John C.

[drb 1643]

The koshirae look genuine to me. The blades are usually plated with an acid etched hamon. 
Good luck,

Tom

[Bruce Pennington]

I would consider Tom's, @drb 1643, opinion on these.  He's gone into a great deal of research on them.

[Baikal_95]

Hi @drb 1643 

 

I attached one picture of the blade. Do you think it's genuine?

 

Thanks

[drb 1643]

Yes, it looks genuine from the picture you posted.

Tom

[ROKUJURO]

It is not a dagger. These have two cutting edges. It is a one-edged knife like TANTO.

[Bruce Pennington]

Don't know where the names come from, but all the reference material call them "dirks".

Ohmura Study/Naval Dirks

[ROKUJURO]

Bruce,

both terms - dagger and dirk - are wrong:

WIKIPEDIA: 

A dirk is a long-bladed thrusting dagger. Historically, it gained its name from the Highland dirk (Scottish Gaelic dearg) where it was a personal weapon of officers engaged in naval hand-to-hand combat during the Age of Sail as well as the personal sidearm of Highlanders..... 

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting!

So, we all know our key reference books are not always 100% correct.  Dirk is the word used by Dawson and F & G, as well as Ohmura.

 

Let's get the Japanese language guys to go over the Japanese term for this item and see how it best translates into English

@SteveM @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN

Here is Ohmura's title in Japanese: "甲種三笠短剣「秀明」・天照山作・短剣七種"  

Google translate chooses the word "dagger".

 

Guys?

[John C]

Ditto. I would like to know the answer as well.

 

Interestingly, the California Penal Code does not define a dirk or dagger by its shape, but rather by its intended use:

"A dirk or dagger is a knife or other instrument with or without a

handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may

inflict great bodily injury or death."

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

Sesko, Markus. Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords. Lulu Enterprises, Inc., 2014. Page 453.

 

Quote

tanken (短剣) — Generic term for dagger or dirk, mostly referring to WWII Western-style, in particular naval, dirks.

WWII = Word War II.

[Bruce Pennington]

So, it looks like either term is acceptable.

[vajo]

Those Meji invented daggers, dirks or what ever are not origin Japanese weapons. The modernised Japanese army/ navy got the design form european armies and slightly design it to look like japanse. These are no Tanto and i think Dawson and other are correct to call them dirks & dagger

[ROKUJURO]

14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

So, it looks like either term is acceptable.

I don't think so.  tanken (短剣) — Generic term for dagger or dirk, mostly referring to WWII Western-style, in particular naval, dirks.

I understand that the term is referring to Western style dirks/daggers like Fairbairn-Sykes:

[ROKUJURO]

12 hours ago, vajo said:

Those Meji invented daggers, dirks or whatever are not original Japanese weapons. The modernised Japanese army/ navy got the design from european armies and slightly designed it to look like Japanese. These are no Tanto and i think Dawson and others are correct to call them dirks & dagger

Chris,

I did not write they were TANTO; I wrote they are like TANTO as they have only one cutting edge. There should be no doubt that daggers/dirks have two (almost) parallel cutting edges, even if some authors use the terms in a wrong way. 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:29 PM, Kiipu said:

Sesko, Markus. Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords. Lulu Enterprises, Inc., 2014. Page 453.

 

WWII = Word War II.

 

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

TANTO as they have only one cutting edge. There should be no doubt that daggers/dirks have two (almost) parallel cutting edges, even if some authors use the terms in a wrong way. 

Ok, I'm enjoying this chase.

Thomas, I've recently learned that the Japanese word for sword, translates to our word knife.  Knives and swords have one cutting edge (normally).  Yet, they don't use that word for Navy dirks, they use tanken.  In the Japanese mind, do they see dirks when they hear this word?  On the other hand, when they are discussing a knife, do they say "TO"?  Maybe I'm chasing my tail.  And sometimes there isn't a direct English word for something in another language, so we simply have to pick a word.  

 

Do we have a word for long, skinny daggers/knives meant for stabbing?  Dagger is the word I would have defaulted to, and until I started studying WWII Japanese swords, I'd never even heard of a dirk.

[ROKUJURO]

Bruce,

different cultures, different fencing techniques and different terms!

In old Japan, stabbing was obviously not a main combat technique except with a YARI; of course there were thrusting techniques for TANTO, WAKIZASHI and KATANA, but they were not predominant. Even the KEN - a double-edged sword - had a rather blunt tip and was probably not effective in that way. Well, they have a YOROIDOSHI, but even this type is not a dagger but a knife! 

Generally, double-edged blades are rare in Japan, as far as I know. I remember that BASHIN (a blood-letting knife for horses) can have a dagger shape.

If you compare that with Erupean arms, we have very many types of daggers, Stiletti, Misericordii, 'mercy daggers' (Gnadgott in German) and many others on the short side, we have long rapiers, epees, foils and  late medieval (very pointed) swords, and so on. 

In Japan, there is more variation in knives. Kitchen knives have special names like DEBA, SANTOKU, GYUTO, NAKIRI, USUBA, a.s.o.. Others are called HÔCHÔ (a more general term for kitchen knives, but also used in BUNKACHÔ ). Work knives for craftsmen and artists can be KO-GATANA or KIRIDASHI. 

The KANJI for sword and knife is indeed the same.  

[Baikal_95]

Happy New Year to All !

 

I was not expecting my post to bring such interesting debate on the right terminology. Not sure which one is the right but it's true that in europe these piece are mainly called dagger despite they are due to their shape more a dirk I guess.

 

I have a few other pictures of this dagger/dirk/tanto So I am sure that would help to confirm if it's a genuine one.

The scabbard is in lacquered leather.

The grip is made of black lacquered shagreen.

The blade doesn't seem to be plated but I could be wrong.

Everything looks genuine to me but happy to get feedback.

Thanks

 

 

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[Baikal_95]

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[Baikal_95]

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[Baikal_95]

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[Brian]

Don't upload .heic files. Google how to take pics in a better format.

[ROKUJURO]

10 hours ago, Baikal_95 said:

.....the right terminology. Not sure which one is the right but it's true that in europe these piece are mainly called dagger despite they are due to their shape more a dirk I guess.......

AN,

please sign all posts at least with a first name plus an initial so we may address you politely. It is a rule here on NMB.

Concerning the use of the right expressions, I would not look at what is mainly (wrongly) used, but what is the correct terminology. Dagger/dirks have two cutting edges, yours does not. It was made clear in the above posts that we sometimes have to use the original term if we can't have a precise translation.

I'll give you a sample from German language. Small axes with a weight of up to about 800 g for firewood splitting are called "Beil" if they are intended for one-hand use. Heavier axes with long, two-hands use handles for tree-felling are "Axt" in German. Many native German speakers do not know this and mix the terms up. 
In English language it is not diffentiated between both uses so there is only one term.  

As NMB is focused on NIHONTO, it should not be too difficult to remain in this context.

In addition to that, I would like to underline what KIIPU/Thomas posted: WWII = Word War II. It seems everybody read this as if he had written 'World War II' ! 

[Baikal_95]

Hi Jean,

 

Thanks for the head-up.

 

Sorry dealing with other platform in Europe and it's forbidden to put name or surname in the signature, or at least not recommended. 

Anyhow I will update my signature. 

 

Best Regards

Axel N.

[ROKUJURO]

Axel,
merci pour ta compréhension!