Fittings Thread

[Bugyotsuji]

Cockscomb knots, from Stephen's link above.

[Stephen]

A proper search

 

https://www.frayedkn...ts.com/military.html

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:39 AM, Tensho said:

Here's a strange one. Never saw this sakura design on a 94/98

It looks like Manchuko Gunto

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

A proper search

 

https://www.frayedkn...ts.com/military.html

Bingo!  Exact same pattern as the OP

 

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

You reckon thse were not done by Japanese? Twining, braiding or plaiting？

Now having ID'd the sailor 'fancywork', you made me curious - do you know of Japanese craftsmen do this kind of knot-work on saya?

[Bugyotsuji]

36 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Now having ID'd the sailor 'fancywork', you made me curious - do you know of Japanese craftsmen do this kind of knot-work on saya?

No idea Bruce, but by WW2 Japanese had long been all over the world.

[Bruce Pennington]

We sometimes get asked if there are kaigunto with family blades, or civil swords re-fitted for the navy.  I've seen more kaigunto, full naval koshirae, with an old blade (I own one), but rare to see a civil sword re-fitted for Navy.  Here is one.

 

A 1600's Yoshimichi with Kiku, civil fittings, but obviously re-fitted for a naval officer.  For sale HERE.

[The Blacksmith]

Its not macramé that you thinking of is it Stephen? Because this isn't macramé.

[Stephen]

14 minutes ago, The Blacksmith said:

Its not macramé that you thinking of is it Stephen? Because this isn't macramé.

No I know macrame,  had a lady friend who wore a halter with no bra made of macrame. 

There's a nickname the navy guys used but I'm past this. Me help is very limited from now on. 

[Kiipu]

Marlinspike or in some cases macramé.

[Stephen]

Thomas did you read the link I posted....that's what it is.

[Kiipu]

I read it now and thanks for the link.  Usually the Boatswain's Mates (BM) does this sort of thing.  Also called marlinspike seamanship back in the day.

[John C]

Okay so I'm a nerd. But here is a page from a book on knots talking about the cockscomb style knot work.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's something a bit unique.  For sale on this Griffin Militaria site.  The tsuka ito was lacquered, which we have seen now and then, but the saya cover is lacquered cloth!

 

"WWII Army Officer Shin Gunto Sword with Old Blade and Cloth Combat Scabbard Cover"

[Bruce Pennington]

This might be a good location for this discussion:  Alex, @aabderson, and I were chatting about the program for converting civil/private swords for the military, and why does there seem to be no standardization.

 

My response:

Nick Komiya's article on the effort to get people to donate or sell their family swords to the military?

 

Program for converting family blades and short blades into Gunto

and

Swords out of stock Alert

 

They had a desired length of blade, but unless I missed something, there was no specified way to re-fit them.

 

I think the old blades we see fully decked out in Type 94/98 fittings were likely brought to a shop, personally, for military koshirae, or, they were bought by private shops and refitted for sale.  There were over 1,200 active sword shops in Japan during the war, selling swords.  I believe the ones with little or no military hardware and just a leather cover were possibly the swords donated and/or bought up by the military in mass quantities, and the minimum done to prep them for miilitary use.  I could have that backwards, but we are just speculating.

 

Edit: after re-reading Nick's article, I may have that backwards:

"It was a program supported by the local Veterans Association as well as the Taiseiyokusankai Political Party. Municipalities would announce the dates and venues of the appraisal sessions and the army sent its appraisers to do preliminary screening. Only the swords that passed this screening were sent further to the HQ of the Officer Gunto Appraisal Committee 将校軍刀監査委員会 for a full screening to determine a fair price. Owners of swords that passed got a notice of appraised value through their local municipal office and the money was remitted by the Gunjinkaikan. Those swords were polished and set into proper new Koshirae and sold to Army officers."

 

So, what I'm wondering, is if anyone has any knowledge on the question of why we see so many private swords with a wide variety of military hardware, sometimes none, and then a leather covered saya?  Were the private sword shops doing this?  Were the arsenals doing it to save time and resources?

 

Ideas and/or documentation welcome!

[Bruce Pennington]

Hmmm.  Two paragraphs down, he said: 
"The program only required the blades, but owners who wished to sell the swords complete with Koshirae was paid for the Koshirae as well."  So, maybe swords that came with koshirae got the leather cover treatment rather than a Type 98 refit.  Still doesn't explain why so many tsuka are partially refitted or not refitted at all, and what's the difference?

 

And we still have the private shops, and businesses, that were selling old blades fitted out (in what fashion?) to new officers.

[Bruce Pennington]

Adding a link to the Canvas Saya Covers thread in an effort to consolidate relevant topics.

[Bruce Pennington]

Got to share this!  Bill Bachman (BachmanW) on this Gunboards Thread has posted an NCO leather tassel that contained tiny, handmade dice!  You squeeze the tassel end-to-end openning the sides to get them out.

 

 

Now I'm going to have to go check all mine!  I'm sure such a thing is pretty rare, though.  

[John C]

Shiny, maroon colored leather. A bit thinner than normal with cross hatch design on the collar. The whole thing seems custom made.

John C.

[Conway S]

Saw this zohei-to on eBay today with what looks like pinned kabutogane (without the pins) and the 15-stamen manchukuoan plum blossoms on the fuchi. It also looks to have that odd little star stamp/unknown kanji that appears from time to time on early Type 98. See below. 

 

Conway 

 

Reference to the odd stamp: 

 

Link to listing:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/116106811506

 

[John C]

1 hour ago, Conway S said:

early Type 98

Seems to have the earlier thicker (11mm) tsuba as well.

John C

[PNSSHOGUN]

Very nice quality early mounts, for anyone after good mounts you will be hard pressed to find better for cheaper. The blade doesn't look like anything special.

[Conway S]

Now that I look at it more closely, I think it might be a light weight gunto with the acid etched hamon as opposed to a zohei-to. 

 

Conway 

[Ontario_Archaeology]

13 minutes ago, Conway S said:

Now that I look at it more closely, I think it might be a light weight gunto with the acid etched hamon as opposed to a zohei-to. 

 

Conway 

I think you're right, sad it's missing the second hanter. I think you can see some ware where it would have been. Light weights are usually easy to spot since the fittings looks small compared to the length. 

[Conway S]

Also the shape of the kissaki is not as pronounced a as a real blade in my opinion. Still a cool piece though. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not a lightweight, just a regular oil tempered sword with etched Hamon similar to those found in combat Kyu Gunto.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Fittings from my type 98. Pretty sure it’s a “piece together”, as the saya might not match, and the unique home-made looking seppa shown in the photos. The other 6 seppa appear original, and two of them are pretty thick. Open to opinions. 
 

Has anyone seen a tsuba like mine? With the notches hammered in around the nakago ana? Was this done to fit the tsuba to the blade? 

 

Sharing to contribute to the thread, but also for the tsuba question.

 

All the best!

Happy St Patrick’s day,

-Sam 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

notches hammered in around the nakago ana?

Sam,

Haven't seen one exactly like that, but have seen quite a variety of such marks (think they have a name).  They were done to tighten up the ana for a closer fit to the blade.

[Bruce Pennington]

Posted this on the Mods for Gunto Swords thread by mistake:

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

We've seen these smooth kabutogane before, but I thought I'd add this to the thread, as it's not the norm.  They seem to be found on gunto in combat saya.  This one has a civil menugi.  1944, Yoshimichi blade.  Poor quality seppa workmanship.  Found at this estate sale HERE.